Ep 198 - Drama-Free Discipline: The Truth About Raising Kids Nobody Wants to Hear

James Caldwell: This is the Manly Catholic, the podcast that calls you out of the shadows and into the fight. Here we forge men into warriors for Christ, husbands, fathers and leaders who refuse to kneel to the modern world's lies. No more passivity, no more excuses, no more lukewarm faith. This is your battle cry, your call to arms. The time for weakness is over. It's time to fight. Welcome to the Manly Catholic. Let's get to work. Hello all, welcome back to another episode of the Manly Catholic. This is James, your host, and with me back again, Dr. Ray is in the house. Dr. Ray, welcome back to the Manly Catholic podcast. James, I'm getting tired of writing books just to get on your podcast. This is what we said last time. We said you had a whole series of books that we need to interview you about. So I've been slacking, so we just have to keep churning these out, I guess. The average layperson might not notice your psychological gaps, but I'm highly trained to pick up on them. They're getting bigger. Hey, I thought that was just aging, Dr. I it was just aging, but you're telling me it's psychological nature, huh? Well, hey, we are talking about one of Dr. Ray's many books today, and it is primarily for all of our parents out there. It is called Drama-Free Discipline, which I think we love hearing that drama-free attached discipline because a lot of us are struggling with this. So I'm excited to dive into it. Dr. Ray's insights and everything. But before we dive into that, think we should call upon St. Michael the Archangel to cast all the demons away that are invoking our child, especially after dinner, to drive us crazy. We'll start in name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen. St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle. Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray, and do thou prince of heavenly hosts by the power of God, cast in the hell of Satan. and all evil spirits who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen. And the father, the son and the Holy Spirit. Dr. Ray, I'm gonna ask you, I guess, kind of a dumb question, but when we talk about discipline, let's just dive into that. What do we mean or what do you mean when you are talking about discipline, especially in terms of parenting? broad definition of that, James. Some people say discipline is any teaching. Some people say discipline is spanking. I think a common definition of discipline is expectations, limits, enforced by consequences. That's how most people would define discipline on a day-to-day basis. I've got something I want to teach you. I know as a kid you're not inclined to do it or not to do it, so therefore, here's my expectation. Recognizing I'm not going to be able to reason you into cooperation no matter what gentle parenting says, and therefore I may have to enforce some consequences to get you into the habit, which will ultimately internally develop. Now you brought about gentle parenting, which I think we've all heard this wonderful phrase about gentle parenting. Can you just talk to it? What is it and why is it probably the worst thing that we could probably try to bring into our discipline? Because I know my wife and me have tried it and like this doesn't make sense. You know, and it's like, I feel like I'm explaining myself. Like I'm a guy, like I'm just like. I want one or two words and that's it. And then I'm like, okay, well, this is why we're doing it. And this is what we're trying to teach. it's like, they don't, they don't understand that, but I'll leave it to you. Why is gentle paradigm so awful? GK Chesterton, I paraphrase him, said something like this, the one doctrine of Christianity that has abundant empirical proof is sin nature, fallen human nature. The problem with gentle parenting is it starts out with a false premise, and that is that children are naturally cooperative. If they were naturally cooperative, we could just reason. We could just use iMessages. We could just explain. We could just persuade. We could just use words. And they would say, ⁓ Father, I see what you're saying. Of course, you make such perfect sense. That's why you're the grown up and I'm the child. It's all so clear to me now. Will you hold my hand and we can sing Kumbaya around the campfire. My office is filled with parents who have tried to raise their children as reasonable creatures. Don't mishear me. You can do so as long as there is a spice called discipline. The discipline allows you to reason with children. If For example, you have a seven-year-old, right there, James? Seven-year-old boy. Twin three-year-old girls. So let's say your seven-year-old son starts to realize, gee, I'm lot bigger than they are. I'm a lot stronger than they are. I can just pretty much take what they have, and they can't do anything about it. I'll just grab it. And you explain to him how that isn't good. how that hurts their feelings, it makes them cry, and they don't understand, and that's their sister. Now, if you have a certain kind of kid, a rare breed, that you can do that with, go for it. But the average seven-year-old boy is going to say, can take it. I don't understand what you're saying. I'm bigger, I can take it. They can't do anything about it. So you as a parent have to say no. You can't take it. And here's what I'm going to do if you do take it. You're going to go sit over there. You're going to go lay in your bed. You're going to put your head down at the table. You can't do that. So what you do is by discipline, you in essence force him to treat his sisters nice. Okay. Now he doesn't want to treat his sisters nice. Why? Because he's a kid. Because he has fallen human nature. And he isn't going to be guided by gentle parenting. And when this blows up in your face, as a parent, one of the first things they do, James, is they think, what am I doing wrong? How come this isn't working? Well, maybe I'm just not doing it right. Maybe I'll try to reason better. Maybe I'll try to explain more. Maybe I'll try to draw parallels. Maybe I'll lecture a little longer. And all of this stuff frustrates them, and it doesn't work. So then what happens is by the he's nine years old and the kids are five, he's just decided, you know, I can pretty much sneak my way into getting anything I want off these two because they're still only five and I'm getting bigger and stronger by the day. So that's why its basic premise is flawed and it gets you further and further from being, ironically, from being a gentle parent. I have often said, that people who wholeheartedly practice gentle parenting often become some of the most frustrated and mean parents I know. Well, yeah, I mean, I can, I mean, I'm exhibit A. I know it's hard to believe, Dr. Ray, I am not a perfect parent, if you can believe that. But I noticed that too. You're just, like I said, I'm a guy and you're just like, over explaining yourself and it doesn't work. And then it's, you you just get frustrated. And then like you said, you get impatient. And then eventually, I mean, we are human and then we just snap. You know, so it's like this over explaining that doesn't really, and like, like you said though, unless you have, you know, the perfect child where the rare breed where it does actually work. think for the majority, it doesn't. So let's, let's use the example. You know, the, seven year old picking on their, their younger siblings. And so what is the, so say just like you brought up their take, they took a toy from their sisters because I'm bigger and I'm stronger and I can take this. What is the appropriate response? Maybe you take it away from him and then you say, okay, if you do this, this is going to happen. Okay, we're gonna take away, I don't know, your favorite stuffed animal. And he does it again anyways. Like, there an amount of severity that you think works? I think you talked about blackouts. Like, are we taking away all of his favorite toys? Are we just taking one to start with? And if he continues to do it, then you go blackout? I guess what is the progression? of discipline in your mind that you have found to be most helpful. I hope that makes sense what I'm trying to get at. You've raised several levels of questions. All right. The first one is how much do you explain? Most kids' misbehavior is repetitive stuff. They're not creative. You're to have bedtime bad times, chore shirking, homework assholes, disrespect, arguing, sibling quibbling. It's just repetitive kind of stuff. And let's say you explain this to your seven-year-old son. You tell him you can't do this to your sister. It's not nice. It's not good, et cetera. However you choose to explain it, you explained it. And keep your explanations kind of short because with a seven-year-old kid, you get much beyond a minute and a half. He's gone. That's the first thing. With a 14-year-old kid, you get much beyond a minute and a half. And not only are they gone, but they're thinking of ways to argue with you. That's the first thing. You could explain. Second question. How many times do you explain? For example, I'm going to assume your seven year old son's not dumb. His wife, his mother is very, very smart. Your genetics watered him down, but still he's probably a pretty smart little guy. So therefore, how many times are you going to verbally correct him when he mistreats a sibling? Five? Fifteen? 35. How many? Generally, most kids, even the littlest ones, even the five year olds, it doesn't take very long for them to learn, I'm not allowed to mistreat a sibling. Okay. I can't call names. I can't kick over their stuff. I can't punch them. I can't push them down. I can't jump off the ropes, use soap in their eyes. Can't do any of that wrestling stuff. Okay. Once you think that the idea has been given, It usually takes for most people three, four, five times, maybe. Then you simply say, well, you know, if you do that, here's what I'm going to do. Very simple. Nothing fancy. It's very simple. Here's what I'm going to do. You're going to sit on the steps. You're going to give your toy to your sister. You're going to go lay on your bed. You're going to put your head down at the dining room table. You're going to write sentences, whatever you decide as a parent. The consequence doesn't really matter. What matters is your follow through. That's the big one. Okay. Now here's where we get the blackout. He refuses to do it. What's your son's name? Yeah. What's your son's name? Noah. Noah. Well, you know, that's, ⁓ gee, he probably didn't know this. That's, that's the Greek for no A E I, which means he who says no. Yeah. Look, look it up. Look it up. It's, yeah. Look it up. So I am looking this up. Okay. You tell Noah, Hey Noah, son, go to the corner, please. Go to. the corner, five, five words, five words, simple tone of voice, no drama, no screaming, no persuasion, no Noah, Noah, did you hear me? Did you hear what I said, Noah? He doesn't go. At that point is when I usually advise parents to go straight to blackout. Blackout is complete cessation of every single and privilege at your hands except love, some kinds of food, and maybe the bathroom. Now, if you're a boy, that's good because the world is our bathroom. So that's okay. You know, no, there's that tree out there. Go there and wash your hands until he serves his time. That means no toys. That means no outside. That means no favorite shirt. That means no favorite cup. That means no dessert. That means if you go out to eat, he watches. He can get a sandwich before he goes. That means no coloring. That means no reading. That means nothing to watch. That means if you choose, no books. That means if you go to grandma's house, he can't play with his cousins. He hasn't served his quarter time yet. You just simply tell a Noah, son, when I get my corner time, you're off black eye. For a seven-year-old, takes about an hour and that's it. Now I had a 14-year-old go seven days once. Like that. Yeah, they can get a lot tougher when they're older and especially if they've had a long period of time where they just push on their parents But blackout is a quiet calm discipline You do it a few times and after that with Noah all you'll have to do James is do this Noah And all the other parents, if you're at a gathering, will look at you like you are God's gift to child rearing. James is the best I ever saw. He never said a word. He pointed with his finger. I wish I could do that. That's powerful. Coffee and prayer. It's the perfect blend. Mystic Monk Coffee isn't just another cup of coffee. It's handcrafted by the Carmelite monks of Wyoming, roasted with care and infused with prayer. Whether you're starting your morning or fueling your day, Mystic Monk Coffee has you covered. It offers rich, bold flavors that are as divine as their mission. By choosing Mystic Monk, you're not just enjoying exceptional coffee, but you're supporting a community of monks dedicated to their work. to prayer and to the church. It's coffee with a cause. So what are you waiting for? Visit mysticmonkcoffee.com and experience the brew that's fueling faith and flavor. Yeah, because I think for me, especially like difference between me and my wife, I think as well. And I we all have our own discipline style, but yeah, I just have found, I mean, maybe we talk about difference between boys and girls, like discipline boys versus girls. Cause I find with my boys, you know, the physical like taking things away seems to work a lot better. My girls are still three. So, you know, it's still kind of juggling that, but maybe we talk about, yeah, like I said, boys versus girls. Have you found? Differences like maybe more I know you said blackout in general But have you found more effective methods for boys versus girls in terms of discipline or is it all kind of? blanket When I was in graduate school They tried to imbue us with an idea That was so ridiculous that I thought it would never gain any traction and it would quickly die out because Reality would crush it And that is the notion that there are no differences between little boys and little girls. That in fact, they are just socialized into different roles. You give your little girls a front end loader, they'll carry it around for four years and grow up to be a special ops tank commando. You give your little boy a baby doll, he'll carry it around, nurture it and grow up to be a preschool teacher. And of course, you know, Having had a little boy that 50 % of little boys will immediately rip the head off that baby doll and turn it into a machine gun. Now we are wired different. God says it. Human history says it. The research says it. By and large, boys push harder. They push harder. They can be more active, more aggressive, more challenging. Little girls, by and large, are a little more easily intimidated. They can be a little quicker to weep. Now, this is not exactly true across the board, because I know you got people listening right now and go, well, it's exactly the opposite with my kids. My little girl's the hell, you know, my little boy's the sweetest little child on earth. Yes, I got that part. These are group norms here. As a result, when you deal with a little boy, probably less words, more action. With a little girl, yeah, you can probably spend a little more time talking about it and maybe, because they're more verbal than little boys are, they are. Little girls, they talk earlier, they talk better, and they talk longer. So because of this, yeah, you might be able to get away with a little more talk discipline with a little girl. But by and large, here's what moms tell me. Boys are more physical energy. Girls are more emotional energy. That's how they summarize it. Yeah, I mean, speaking of discipline, our girls, yeah, it's when you say no to them, they will start with the tears. And especially if I say it, it is right to mom. it's like, nope, you can't be throwing stuff at your sister. it daddy's so mean and blah, all this stuff. Yeah, okay. Hypothetical scenario, of course, Dr. Ray, because I would never have done this. What if you, you you, you, you hear Dr. Ray's advice, you forget it, and now you're just, you're very frustrated and you, cause my like go-to, I'll just, I'll just be, I'll just going to put this out into the public. My go-to is, you know, if they're not listening, I'm going to take it. And if you continue not listening, like I'm just going to get rid of it, like altogether, you know, like throw it away. Basically that seems to be, I don't know why that's like my go-to. But what do you do when you reflect on it? Because obviously you did it out of anger and you're not thinking straightly obviously when you're angry and you realize you've gone too far in the discipline. How do you walk that back? Or if you reflect on it, like, actually that wasn't, I did the right thing discipline wise, but maybe I delivered it incorrectly. How would you, guess, go about repairing that? Or if you do want to walk it back, you decide, maybe you talk to your wife, you're like, no, maybe that was a little too much. And then you kind of walk it back in a way that doesn't kind of like undermine your authority. That makes sense. Two levels to your question, James. The first one is style versus discipline. Your discipline might've been legit. You led me to consequence, but your style was terrible. You screamed, you yelled, you argued, you threatened, you lost it. Okay. Apologize for your style. You're not apologizing for your discipline. He still has to serve as consequence, but you're going to go in there and you can say, you know what, honey, I shouldn't have yelled like that. That was wrong. There's no way I should have yelled at you like that. I hope you'll forgive me and I'm sorry. Now, of course, if he's an average kid, he's going to look at you like, nah, I ain't going to forgive you. Suffer. You made me suffer. You're going to suffer. That's okay. That's a little kid. So what? The other question is this. What if you did overdo it? Okay. Now this is the ninth time today he's mistreated his sibling. That's it. That is it. I will never buy you anything until your wedding rehearsal dinner. And you better hope your father-in-law buys it, because I won't. All right. You go back and you say, I overreacted. I'm going to buy you stuff. Buy your high school graduation. OK, I'll get it to you by then, not by wedding rehearsal. You say, I just overdid it. Here's the key to this. A parent asked me this once. Do I lose credibility? If I back away from my initial response and I said, absolutely not, you gain credibility because you reassessed on the basis of clear thinking. You didn't reassess because you felt guilty. You didn't reassess because you're afraid he won't like you. You didn't reassess because you're afraid you're going to damage his psyche and he's going to be on springer someday. You reassessed because I overdid it. And you gain credibility. You go and say, you know what, son, that was ridiculous. You're not grounded for five days, but you are grounded for one. You're not grounded for five. Five's too much. And you gain credibility. You showed mercy. Cool. Yeah, that's a good point too, because yeah, I know my wife and I, we've done that where we realized like, like you said, the yelling or the tone or things like that. And then you go back and you apologize and Yeah, it's something I think we all work on, but again, this whole gentle parenting thing, just going back to the first or second question, it causes parents to get frustrated so quickly and then they end up overreacting consistently. That's what we found early on in our, and we've obviously gone away from that. Especially for me, I just feel like I'm more firm and like you said too, men in general are more authoritative and tend to speak more directly, especially with my boys versus style with my wife. So what do you do, I guess, ⁓ as a husband? Cause I found this too, when my boys are disrespecting my wife and you know, she's trying to discipline them and they're just not listening. Is there a point where you as a husband step in immediately or do you try to let her handle it? I guess when's the sweet spot when you come and you dictate your authority versus let's let my wife handle it and see how it plays out. There's a piece of advice that I give to fathers that I think would make their wives feel very, very warm and protected. And that is protect your wife. For example, she's bickering it out. with a nine-year-old, 11-year-old, a 13-year-old, and you're sitting in the barca lounger in the other room, thinking to yourself, I close my eyes, I can't tell which one of them's the 12-year-old. You don't sit there. You get up. You go in, and you intervene. That's not just your mom you're talking to that way. That's my wife. I'm gonna see what she wants me to do about this. Okay, wait a minute. Don't intervene until you get permission from your attorney and she signs it and allows you to intervene. And then I'm going to do more. Here's what I tell the guys. Most wives appreciate very much when you step in and just take over that discipline because maybe they're getting into a bicker bout or maybe it's starting to go back and forth emotionally. And, and typically what happens is. that the wife is feeling mistreated. You know, this child is getting snotty or this child's getting argumentative or this child is starting to get really pushy and the wife is feeling like, I'm trying to grab control of the situation here. And when they see the husband come in, not to hold court. I can double emphasize that. You don't come in going, what is going on in here? Now what, okay, what did you say? What did she say? Oh, wait. Now, no, wait a minute, let's sort this out. No, no, no, no. Even if your wife's style is bad, she's still mom and the child is not allowed to mistreat mom. Well, wait a minute, mom is mistreating the child. That may be, and you can talk about that later, but you don't step in there and try to figure out who's more at fault. You step in. And if in fact your discipline is more calm and controlled, most wives appreciate that. They don't look at it as, have my own authority. I can handle this. I don't need you rescuing me. Sometimes husbands don't step in. You know why, James? Because they think, no, she needs to learn how to handle this. She needs to get better at this. Wait a minute. Okay. The kid's 12 years old. If in fact, Wife is getting pulled into arguments with this kid. It's 12 years. How much longer are you going to wait for her to learn to develop her style? A good marriage rule. The better, calmer disciplinarian rules. That's the rule my wife and I had. Whoever had the better structure, the better standard, the calmer approach rules. I, as a father, very much appreciated my boy's ability to burp the alphabet at the kitchen table without taking a breath. all the way to end. thought that's impressive. That's talent guys gotta have. My wife did not appreciate that. She didn't like them burping the alphabet at the table. Okay. She rules. That's her rule. If I come home and I'm ready to take him to basketball with me and my wife says, nah, they're going to bed early. He was, he was really uncooperative with school today. Okay. She rules. The parent with the discipline. Now here's why. People will say, yeah, but wait a minute. What if the parent with the discipline is too strict? What if the parent with the discipline overreacted? The answer to that is this, James. Most of us, and you kind of touched on this earlier. Most of us are not too strict. We may be too harsh. We may be too loud. We may be too emotional, but we're not too strict. All right. We allow an awful lot of stuff before we finally intervene. So really the parent that is the better disciplinarian is still probably not too strict. And that's one thing I think is a buffer to the argument of, no, no, you're too strict. Not really. You may be too loud. Yeah, no, I agree with that Dr. Ray too, because even just reflecting on Betsy, my wife and me, it's more style than the actual discipline. And I think most parents can relate to that too. It's like, no, we're not actually that strict. It's more just like we lose our ish on our children. Because again, we're fed up and frustrated. But no, just to kind of touch just a personal story. I have found when I have seen my master lawyer of a seven-year-old try to negotiate with my wife. And I hear it like in the other room and I walk in and I do it not in a raised voice, but I'm very calm, but in a stern voice. And I say something like, that is your mom you're talking to. Like, it's almost like a shock to the boys, you know, it's like, okay. And it kind of gets them in line, so to speak. But yeah, it just, even as a father, you know, we, I think too many of us, we don't take that role seriously because yeah, we're. Despite what our society tells us, there are differences between men and women. We are more authoritative. We do have a deeper, louder voice just naturally, typically than our wives. And I think oftentimes we need to use that. And I think most often in most marriages, the man is going to be the more, I guess, stricter of the two, just because again, naturally, I think men tend to not put up as much as women do. I could be wrong on that, but I just have found just, you know, talking to other dads and things like that. But... I want to ask you Dr. too. What is your, I guess, philosophy on spanking? And do you think it still has a place? you think it, does it go back to, I guess, style versus discipline? Like obviously you don't want to do it out of anger. That's when things can get out of control. Cause I've heard kind of, as I'm sure you have both sides of the coin and what is your, I guess, so say like you have a We'll just use Noah as an example, that we do the timeout and then we do the blackout and it's still not working. And you know, when do you kind of use that or do you absolutely condone not using spanking? A young mother came to me one time. She said she moved into a neighborhood, a suburban neighborhood, and there was a mom's gathering where they would periodically get together. They were curious about where she came from and who she was, et cetera. She said, I got the sense that I could have said to them, well, I used to belong to a biker gang. And one of the things that we did is we sold drugs to fifth graders and we made a lot of money that way to sponsor our other illegal activities. And they would be curious. They'd say, wow, that's interesting. How did you pull out of that? Well, that had to be a difficult situation. Did that create anxiety for you or depression? But then she said, I said, There are times when I I swat my toddler. She said they all reacted like I was the walking evil. If you take a poll of a hundred mental health types, especially child development people, social workers, counselor types, and you ask them, is spanking wrong? Is it psychologically harmful? Will it do damage emotionally to your children? My very rough guess, my estimate there, James, is that approximately 84.26957 % would say absolutely never under any circumstances hit a child. To show you how deeply that notion has penetrated our culture, I saw a survey that said, which is worse, an adulterous relationship in a marriage or hitting a child? The majority said hitting a child. Now notice the word choice, a child. course, of course. Kind of putting, putting together, punching a kid in the head. Right. Here's the reality. There is no legitimate research anywhere that says when a parent under control will swat a bottom or give a spank, that that causes psychological damage to that child. The standard indictments against spanking are these. It creates a might makes right mentality. It solves problems through force. It teaches a child to be aggressive. It teaches a child that I win because I'm bigger than you and I'm stronger than you and I'm more hurtful than you and worse, the worst indictment, it is a form of child abuse. Now, what do you do with all these surveys that said 97 % of prison inmates were corporally punished? Yes. and 85 % of them didn't have fathers either. And most of them had pathetic parenting. And most of them, by the time they were 12, 13, 14 years old, were anti-social. So yes, banking may have been part of, and probably it was worse than spanking, part of their upbringing, but their whole upbringing was terrible. So how do you sort that out? The survey that says, Those parents who spank a lot generally have worse behaved children. ⁓ that's true. Here's the problem. Parents who spank a lot generally are out of control. They're swinging first. They're asking questions later. And the spanking is a symptom of their frustration, their lack of consistent, firm, calm discipline. So as a result, the spanking is not a cause, it's a byproduct of bad parenting. I think it was the American Medical Association or America. Yeah, I think it was AMA came out and said, we've reviewed the studies and we're forced to conclude and they were forced to conclude because the AMA does not like spanking under any circumstance. They were forced to conclude that it does not cause the psychological emotional issues that the theories speculate that it causes when done in a loving, caring, stable home. And then they said, But we're against it anyway. And I remember talking to the article. The article didn't talk back, but I talked to the article. I gave it a swat. And I said, you could be against it all you want, but don't tell parents the research says it does this when it doesn't. Now, am I saying, good, go spank? No, I'm saying you judge spanking like you judge all discipline. How's it working for you? in your home, with your morals, with your values. I was on a talk show one time. We were dealing with spanking. There was a lady on there who was a child development person, and child development people, flat out across the border against spanking, almost all of them. Host asked me, Ray, have you ever spanked your children? Now at that time, James, had 10 kids between the ages, I think 14 and two. had between 12 years, we had 10 kids. And I said, yeah, I said, yeah, some of them have gotten swats and some of them never, didn't ever have to. She wheeled on me, your children fear you then. I said, whoa, gee lady, I fear you here. Take a couple of ludes, tone it down, would you? I said to her, how can you say that? You don't know me. You don't know my children. You're concluding they fear me because I've swatted a bottom. And then I said this and really shook her up. She got mad at this. I said, besides, under certain circumstances, I want my children to fear me in the sense of they fear my reaction. I don't, I don't fear judges. have, I have friends who are judges, but I do fear them if I'm in their courtroom. 100%. I don't fear police officers, but I do fear them when they pull me over and I'm in trouble. Then I fear them. So it's a context kind of thing. And we did a study, this is, know I'm going on, give you a lot of details on this. My second book was called Back to the Family. We interviewed strong families in all 50 states. They were identified as great, great families by teachers. We asked them, do you now have you ever or will you spank? 70 % of them said yes, but they did. Usually when the kids were littler, you know, five, six, seven, usually for certain offenses, usually like a spice, not the main discipline. And they had the best kids that these teachers had ever seen. So this whole idea of spanking is awful, evil, terrible, horrible. I'll close with this. Go back a hundred years. What people used to do for spanking 100 years ago would now get them charged with child abuse. Switches, brooms, sticks, paddles, everything. One of the indictments against spanking is it teaches kids to be aggressive and antisocial. If you look at the stats, socio-demographic stats 100 years ago, the crime rate was radically lower. the aggression rate, all the criminal kind of violent rates, much, much lower when spanking was much, higher. Now the argument would be, okay, wait a minute, Ray, that's not a fair comparison. It was very different culture 100 years ago. said, that's right, it was. But your argument is that spanking in and of itself, no matter where it's done, no matter how it's done, no matter who does it, creates aggression. is the case. Why, 100 years ago, when this was much more prevalent, much nastier, did we not have more aggressive people? That's the question. Well, I mean, just talking about that, Dr. I feel like, I mean, do they talk about like the use of technology? TV? No. Social media? No. I mean, like that easily explains anti-social behavior. I mean, gosh, I remember me, like I was totally addicted to video games and like the video games now, like I'll see just like a preview watching a movie because now everything has to have an ad. You know, and I'm oh my gosh, this is terrible. Your bio. I mean, like Grand Theft Auto, where you're just like, you're encouraged to go do these vile things like sell drugs and like beat up a like a prostitute and stuff. like, what are we teaching our, like that probably explains all these statistics that you guys are talking about, not did you spank your child or not? And it's just, it's baffling to me. Cause like, we're like a basically no tech at all with our children and How are we this podcast? I'm not even on the air, I? I know, this is all mirage, Dr. Ray. This is all mirage. We are no tech. But no, we'll watch a 30-minute show with our children. It's like a family time thing once in a while, but I'm just like, I... Yeah, just those statistics you were talking about. I like, how are they not talking about the rise of the cell phone and kids have phones by eight years old now? It's just... It's insane to me. It's like, know myself with a cell phone, how addicted I am to it. And just imagine a child whose brain is developing. It's, it's, it's upsetting that we can have a whole other, whole other conversation on that. You're tapping into one of my books, James. It was called Raising Upright Kids in an Upside Down World. And the book talks about how technology, computers, video games, the smartphone shape who a kid is and how he thinks. his character, how he approaches life, how it misshapes his soul. So by the he's 23 years old, he wants no part of religion. And I talk about this in the book. Now, fortunately, inch by inch, our culture is coming around to realizing the psychological, emotional, and even spiritual dangers of this stuff. The technology galloped on ahead of us before we got a grip on it. It's like a wild horse that we couldn't grab the reins, and now we're finally grabbing the reins. trying to pull it to a stop. So you're right, that's happening. But in one of my books, I talk about that. I said, it's an interesting culture. We don't say much about rotting out a child's soul, but if we swat a bottom, you're an evil parent. Well, hi everyone. My name is Father Dominic Couturier with the Manly Catholic Podcast. And I'd like to take a few seconds to share with you about Harmel Academy of the Trades. Harmel Academy of the Trades is an all male Catholic trade school here in Grand Rapids, Michigan. It's a one year, two year, three year program where we're dedicated to building a community of prayer, work and study. All the men are exposed to a variety of trades, havoc, electrical, plumbing, welding, machine systems, technology. We have multiple programs for individuals who are interested in certain kinds of trades. All the men work together, pray together, live on campus together. We actually moved to a new campus as well too, bigger living space, bigger dorms, bigger lab. So we're growing. So really excited about that with you. So if you're interested in checking out Harmel Academy of the Trades, please visit us at harmelacademy.org where you can find out more information about this wonderful all male Catholic trade school. Thank you. Yeah, I just, like you said, I'm glad, like I know the anxious generation was huge, I think best seller and that seems to have really woken up, but we actually are homeschooling our children now. And besides like just the, cause we had them in Catholic school and it was a great Catholic school and everything, but it's like technology was so prevalent. And I mean, that's one of many reasons why we decided to homeschool, but I was like, these kids, like you just look at their behavior. After, you know, 30 minutes of TV and it's like, no wonder we only do this like once every two weeks because you guys just go off the rails. Like their brains literally cannot handle it. You know, so it's like, you could see their brain is just like shrinking and rotting as they're watching a TV show. And it's like, yeah, this is why we, we rarely do this. So it makes perfect sense. had a clinical psychologist come into my office some many years ago and she had a five year old. And she was trying to raise him clinically, psychology wise. And he was eating her for lunch. And I described some things she might do. And she said to me, wouldn't it be nice if you could come to my house and sit in my living room or my kitchen and watch me interact with him and give me on the spot guidance? I said, I can do that. So I did. And that was the springboard to the drama-free discipline, which you know as you looked at it, is scenarios. It's actual scripted scenarios between parent and child. I have the parent speaking, I have the kid speaking, I have parent-parent, I have parent-grandparent, I have parent-teacher, just standard, the most common discipline scenarios, the repetitive stuff that parents deal with. And then... I step into the scene. every little bit and make an observation, give a suggestion. For example, if the kid says he's not going to bed, I'll step into the scene. I'll say, Mom, did you hear what he just said? He said, duh, duh, duh. And you said, duh. How did that work? What if you did this? And then it's just that that's. That's the structure of the drama free discipline. It's not a matter of, I'm gonna do this narrative like I'm doing here with you. No, it's an actual hands-on, scripted, common situations where I am the observer and the intervener. Dr. Ray, what would you say is just keeping it really practical? The biggest mistake or maybe the thing that parents can change the most easily, even starting today, that you have just found that has troubled most parents? Let's assume that our parents are good parents. Okay, so we don't want to have to deal with this rampant pathology of dysfunction in a family. Let's say that... Most of the people listening to you are reasonably solid marriages, they're faith-filled people, they're trying to raise good kids. What is the number one thing by far? Discipline. Enforcing discipline. They run into arguments, they run into resistance, they run into kids ignoring them. They can't enforce the consequence because the kid will sabotage it. They get frustrated. All of this becomes very, very ugly. They go to confession. Bless me, Father. Before children, I was pretty nice. Now... I am not pretty or nice. And I just want to know, is it a serious sin to think about shooting your kid with a bazooka? Okay, now I wouldn't shoot him, but I got it nipped. Comes into my head. So that's what happens. They get very frustrated. They don't like who they've become because the discipline can't be enforced. When we had the kids all at home, like my 10 kids are adopted, and a lady from church, asked my wife, what would you do if one of your children refused your discipline? My wife said, I don't know. The lady said, wait, wait, what do you mean you don't know? Are you telling me your children, all 10 of them, don't refuse discipline? My wife said, well, at one time they did. until they found out what I would do and they're not dumb. They realized I don't want that to happen again. And early on she taught them, if you refuse your discipline, the consequences jump dramatically. As a psychologist, I tell parents, I'm not worried by your kids misbehaving. That's what kids do. Come on. They're unsocialized. They're partially moralized. That's what they are. So what do you expect? Well, he doesn't listen. He's impulsive. He's self-centered. He's selfish. Yeah. So what are you saying here? Okay. He's He's human. Yeah, he's human. So that doesn't bother me, What bothers me is when the parents can't enforce discipline. Because at any moment, depending upon the child's mood and depending upon the parent's mood, it can get really ugly. It can get nasty. It can turn a simple go to the corner, please, into an hour and a half brawl. And that's where most parents struggle. And that's what I do, not only in my therapy, but in my books to get parents to have this calmer, stronger discipline. There's a simple rule. If you have authority, You don't have to use it very often. If you don't have it, you're always chasing some form of it. Yeah. I mean, it just sounds like what you're saying, Dr. the consistency of it in the enforcement is way more important than like the type that you do, whether it's the sentences, the corner, the head down. It could be whatever it is. It could be something else, something else that's creative, but then this is the consistent. mean, the kids, like you said, they're not stupid. They will learn. And then it's the refusal to enact that discipline. That's when you jump or the kid, I'm sorry, refuses to do the discipline. That's when you jump to. the blackout scenario type Here's what I hear from a lot of Catholic Christian parents. They'll say this, well, discipline doesn't teach anything. All it does is it just is trying to stop the misconduct, but we want to infuse virtue. We want the child to absorb kind of a better conduct internally. And I'll say, that's true. We do. But you'll never get that if you don't stop the bad stuff. If he can mistreat his sisters, and for the most part, he either gets away with it or it just gets ugly, you're not going to teach him virtue toward his sisters. You're going to have to stop the bad stuff so you got room for the virtue to kick in. If he can, at age 14, be disrespectful and argumentative with you and nasty. ⁓ You're not going to have him absorb the virtue of respect as long as he can still do this. Yeah. Yeah, that's a really good point. Yeah. And one thing too, with again, my lawyer Noah is, we'll like give him an answer. And then he always asks why. And what I've been starting to do too is we're teaching about the commandments and especially honor your father and mother and then obedience. And what I've been telling him, and you can... Correct me if I'm wrong, Dr. Ray. But I will tell him. Stop right there, James. Stop right there. That's one of the problems with modern parenting. Dang it. They look at the experts and say, OK, tell me if I'm doing this right. That's partly why parents have no OK. This is what I'm doing, Dr. Ray. This is what I'm doing. All right. don't care if you like it or not. don't care if you like it or not. What was that going? So I'm saying what I tell him, if he asked why, I'd go, if you need to obey first, and then I will explain later. Now, what if I say, what if I say, well, James, I don't think that's appropriate. Your reasonable comeback should be, well, Ray, you can think what you want, but it's my child. And this is how I've decided to handle this. Now you can say, well, Ray, tell me what you would do. And so I'd say something and you go, yeah, I like your idea better. Now that's different. That's very different than the idea of, well, I'm hoping I'm doing this right. And Ray, he's got letters after his name and he's, he's the smart expert. So he's going to correct me if I'm wrong. Now, I think that's a great idea. Here's another one. Tell Noah, Hey Noah, I gave you my reason, son. You didn't like it. That's all I got. Please don't argue anymore or you'll argue to the corner. Because here's the thing, if you do say, well, okay, because honor thy father and mother means to obey thy father and mother. Well, why do I have to do that? See, you give them a springboard. You're giving them a springboard and more jawing instead of just simply saying, no, I gave you my reason. You didn't like it. End of discussion. You think he's bad? Wait till he's 15. Hey, I'm just dealing with seven. Let's just keep it right here, Dr. Ray. Let's just keep it here. Well, it's already been an hour, Dr. Ray. What are some parting words of wisdom from Dr. Ray that you would like to infuse into our art in before we let you go? When you feel guilty about disciplining. When you think it's hard. When you wish you didn't have to do it. When you're afraid he won't like you. When you're afraid of doing something psychologically wrong. Remember this. You're the kindest, most gentle, loving teacher that that child will ever have. If you don't do it now, the world will. Your child will be disciplined. It's a guarantee. Every one of your kids' change is going to be disciplined. The question is, who's going to do it? The judge, a landlord, an army sergeant, a police officer, an employer? I shudder at this next one. A wife? You somebody's going to teach them and the world will hurt your child. I say this, discipline without love may be harsh. Love without discipline is child abuse because ultimately the world will crush that child. Yeah, it's such a good point too. And yeah, I think going back to like the homeschool, I told you, we pulled our kids out and, you know, just realizing too that as a mother and a father, like we are the best teachers of our children, you know, and so often neglected and, you know, parents being told like, you can't do it or you're not good enough. Like, it's such a lie. You know, like God gave you these children for a reason, you know, as we always say, or as the Bible says too, He will not give you something that you cannot handle. So I just, you know, I encourage everyone, you know, pick up this book from Dr. It's called Drama Free Discipline. Dr. Ray Coaches You to Parenting Success. Dr. Ray, where can our listeners find the book? I know it's on Amazon, but is there anything else? If you want a signed copy, if you'd like a signed copy, simply go to my website. It's discounted there. It's drray.com, D-R-R-A-Y.com. All 20 books are there. And if you'd like a signed copy, you'll get it for just as cheap. but it'll be signed. Not by me, it'll be signed by one of my kids, but you'll still get it signed. Hey, that is that one of your methods of discipline, Dr. Ray? If you misbehave, you have to sign all of these copies of my book. I remember one time, James, I was signing a book and my son came in and he goes, dad, dad, you're not allowed to write in books. So he's coming back at you. He's using your logic against you. Dr. Ray, well, I think we've covered two of your books. We have about 18 more to go, so we'll have to get you back on for some more. But thank you as always for your time, your humor, and all the wonderful topics you teach. We really, really appreciate your time. But until everyone, thank you so much for listening. Until next time, go out there and be a saint. Brothers, thank you for listening, but do not let this end here. If this episode stirred something inside of you, do not keep it to yourself. Share it with a brother who needs to hear it, a man who is tired, a man who's drifting, a man who's under attack and does not even know it. This podcast exists because the battle is real and souls are at stake. This work has helped you please support the channel so we can keep fighting. Your support will help ignite the mission to keep us going. We need your help brothers. I know you will come through for us. Pray for us because we need as well. The enemy does not rest and neither can we. Now go and live this. Be a saint. Not tomorrow but today. Choose the hard thing. Reject sin. Get back up. Go to confession. Pray your rosary. Love your family. and carry your cross without complaining.