Ep 197 - The War You're Already Losing: Breaking Free from Porn for Good with The Freedom Group

James Caldwell: This is the Manly Catholic, the podcast that calls you out of the shadows and into the fight. Here we forge men into warriors for Christ, husbands, fathers and leaders who refuse to kneel to the modern world's lies. No more passivity, no more excuses, no more lukewarm faith. This is your battle cry, your call to arms. The time for weakness is over. It's time to fight. Welcome to the Manly Catholic. Let's get to work. Hello all, welcome to another episode of the Manly Catholic. This is James, your host, and with me I have a very special interview with two guests that I'm very excited to speak with today. have Joe Massick and Nick Redda from the Freedom Group. Boys, welcome to the Manly Catholic podcast. It's good to be here. It's awesome to be here. Yeah. I know Joe and Nick started the freedom group, which is honestly guys, is just hearing you guys listen on your podcast, just looking at your website. I think you guys are doing awesome work and I'm really excited to share this with our listeners, everything that you guys are doing. really think as you guys say on the website is such an important need, probably one of the greatest needs that men need in our day and age now. So first of all, thank you for the work that you're doing. But before we dive into that gentlemen, let's start with St. Michael. I gave you guys a little bit of prep work before you came on. The question I always ask, my first time guess. If you could be the patron saint of anything, what would it be and why? And Nick, you are on my left on Riverside, so I'm going to kick it to you first, Nick. The left. That's not a good sign. The sinister. First things first, you know, when people do the St. Michael prayer, you never know if you're in a church. Do they cast Satan or do they thrust him? Does he wander or does he prowl? I'm a caster and a prowler. Thrust is like kind of, I think of like a hip thrust. It's like, I don't know. That's fair. Which that dovetails nicely into my patron saint. If I were to be a patron saint, I had options, limitless, because it was pretty open-ended, but I landed on, I don't know if it's a moniker or a pseudonym, they used to call me back in the day, Saint Tickles. Saint Tickles. So yeah, there's a lot of story underneath that and a little bit of baggage and some trauma, but I would be the patron saint of tickle fights. Speaking of tickle fights, I got baby number four coming down the pipe, is how tell our kids how babies come. Tickle fights get a little wild. if you know what I'm saying, patrons saying of tickle fights. When a man and woman love each other very much, they tickle each other. That's right. This is also a start gentlemen. This is also a good start. love it. Joe, what about you? I'm going the patron saint of aquarium fish keepers. Wow. I was not expecting that. Yeah. Fish keepers, hobbyists. Yep. Anyone that keeps or tents fish. Yeah. I have found myself many times needing to pray over water quality, over my pH, over my TDS. Someone listening to this right now gets it and they understand somebody is currently packaging fish as they, listen or watch this in, into a bag to bring to their local fish store to resell them. To be able to fund the hobby. And I just want to say, see you. I know you, I get it. And I'm glad you're here. This is the patron. Yeah. St. Joseph of, of surely the patron saint of, of, ⁓ of, ⁓ of quair and fish keepers. gotta be honest with That is not on brand when I first found this out about you, but it is, it's just, it's amazing when you find out more about somebody, when you're basically married to somebody through a business partnership, you discover a lot of just last week. Joe took us through his, I don't know where that was in your house, Joe in the basement, but all this you showed us your whole setup and he breeds and sells them. love it. Wow. Okay. Joe, this is great. This is why I love this question. It's so open-ended and I find out so much about my guests. Well, hey, I've been keeping some kind of fish since I was like eight years old. There's yeah, that long, long, less baggage, long story. Many, many good times. mean, I obviously want to talk about your business, but you both have opened up so many questions about your personal life. So let's have to have you back on to talk about that. Let's talk about the Freedom Group. First of all, like I said, I think you guys are doing awesome work, but I'll kick it to you guys kind of maybe introductions if you want to talk more about your guys' selves. But what made you start this? Because it's like I said, it's definitely different from the other, I guess, porn stopping programs, if you want to put it that way, that is out there. mean, you have like Covenant Eyes, which tackles one thing. And then you have other ones too that seem to tackle certain aspects of it. But you guys obviously encompass the whole person. I listened to your guys' episode today where there was a program that talks about porn being neutral. It's not good or bad, it's neutral. And that was, I've never heard that. So that was something too, but I'll just kick it to you guys. However you guys want to answer that. What made you guys decide to tackle this beast? Cause obviously it is a beast, the porn industry. And we'll just go from there. Yeah. Ed Milet, who's a speaker leadership coach out there on the inner web says you're best equipped to serve the person you used to be. And fundamentally that's the reason why we're doing this is because The reality, the spiral, the confusion, the frustration, self-hatred, shame, duplicity of someone struggling with a hidden secret ⁓ was us. For me, was porn primarily. porn and masturbation for 23 years of my life from the time I was seven years old. When I first got introduced and became a semi-regular habit peaked in terms of how frequently I was using and the aggressive nature of the use when I was in high school. And then I tried to start, start trying to manage it. And for 12 years after college, after I reverted back to my faith and took my faith more seriously as an adult, ⁓ I struggled and, and it kind of settled into a weekly to biweekly habit and created all kinds of inner turmoil. And then I found this approach and within three months, I went from a one to two week. It's sometimes binging on it. If things were really bad to, to total and complete freedom to a level I had never felt or experienced before. And that was really, that was the beginning of it. After about a year of that, that's where it started to stir in me of like, I want to give this away. I want to give this away. And it was a right. mean, it's totally. divine intervention in this one, but I found a hilarious meme or a reel on Instagram that perfectly described my experience of Nick when he and I worked together in ministry or when he was in ministry, I was in a college student at that point, I guess. And I sent it to him and his response was, when are we going to do something together? Why don't we start in a men's ministry together? I think was his response. That was the question. Yeah. And I said, funny, you should ask. I've been dreaming some stuff up. We should talk. And so we did, we had a phone call, ⁓ and there was tons of alignment and what was in both of our hearts. And, shortly after that time I was playing pickup basketball and tore my ACL and both sides of my meniscus, which is pretty much the only way God could stop and get me to sit on a couch or a bed for six weeks. And so I just had six weeks to pray and think and talk to Nick. And through that, he and I developed a 78 page Google doc. that really started to spell out if we were, if we were going to turn around and give this to men, what would it, what would it look like? And really our heart was to reach guys that had tried something before they tried the apps, they tried, you know, counseling, they tried something and it just didn't stick, you know, feeling hopeless and feeling like maybe I'm just going to have to manage this for, for the rest of my life and give them hope again, give them real tangible evidence for freedom as possible. Not just as a tagline or a slogan to something cool or to get you hyped up. ⁓ this isn't a sales conference. This is getting into the process and doing the work of learning to become a free and regulated man and to learn how to engage your life as an adult. And understand that that pornography for most of us, ⁓ was our main, if not only coping mechanism through some of our most pivotal developmental years. ⁓ the average age of introduction is 10, 11 years old. That's pretty much every developmental stage as a, as a child into young adulthood, into adulthood, where I had a way out from every opportunity to learn resilience and fortitude, to learn capacity, to learn how to shoulder stuff. And, you know, it's hardwired into each of us as men. We don't want to live an easy, comfortable life. We want to do something ambitious. We want to achieve something significant. We want to become something. Of meaning and, and, and live with an intentional purpose and, and, know, porn more than just a cheap way out or a dark secret in a habit. It's just like, and again, in our own experience and now coaching hundreds of guys over the past several years, it just has a way of taking a guy out at his knees from ever believing he could achieve any of those things. And so oftentimes he stops believing in it and settles into the rut and just tries to manage and get by. so. Really, that's the dream outcome for us is we want to unleash men into their purpose and calling and to go and to live their purpose and to live in their identity of who God created them to be and to figure out exactly what that is. And so that God has many men that he didn't before that he can trust to raise up in positions of leadership and significant domains and authority in his church and in his kingdom. And so that they would rule as good Kings, not as tyrants or as men who will be used that power to take advantage of other people, but we'll lead it with self gifts. It's been, mean, Nick and I reflect on it. Honestly, when we started this a couple of years ago, neither of us, I think even would dream where we are now we've worked, we've run groups of, of priests, like the types of priests that everybody loves and, and, and wants to be near and to see them. gain lasting freedom and become even more of who they are is amazing. work multiple days a week now at a, at a seminary here in the twin cities doing this work at the heart of the church. ⁓ if you had told me five years ago that I would be doing that, I would have told you you're crazy. And so just seeing the way that God has sort of like, as we've just believed in something and it had a vision and started to do the hard work of one step at a time, what's the next thing we want to develop and build? How do we make this better? ⁓ you know, as seeking to create the most effective thing, not so that we can create a household brand so that we can create free men. Yeah, it's really, it's, it's inspired us to give more, to go further, developed us in our capacity. I mean, there've been so many times and occasions in the past few years where there's moments of challenge where I would have needed to escape that I would have wanted to run from rejection, fear, will we make it to next month? All the stuff that creates the inner turmoil. That before was a cue or trigger to hit the easy button and to get out. And, and every venture that I've tried, I've been an entrepreneur since I started my first LLC when I was in eighth grade, pretty much my whole life. And all of them died because, because I, I lacked the capacity to stay in it and to, and to continue to do the hard thing, um, over and over and over again. And, uh, so, you know, like, I think the beautiful thing is we grow and develop this like so much more and more. As guys get free and experience that it's becoming a community driven reality. So many guys saying, what can we do? We want to build this with you. We want to get, get in, um, you know, kind of on the ground level and help this go. And that's like, that's our dream. That's that those are the things that I think were like far out, like, God, we'd love to create. We'd love to work with people. We love create meaningful, purposeful jobs for people, for good, strong, capable men. Yeah. Like, we really feel like we're just getting started in all of that. So the short answer to your is we started this fundamentally because we were addicted to pornography first and have experienced freedom. We never thought possible when we were in it and have turned around to give that away to other men. And, and, ⁓ we mean it when we say we want to guarantee that for every man to get free in a year or less. ⁓ we don't want this just to be another thing that you test and try and like, well, that didn't work for me onto the next thing. We want to be in it with you until you are finally there at the destination that maybe even right now you don't believe is possible. And we're putting our money where our mouths are in that. it's been it's been super I mean, that was an idea of like, what what's going to motivate guys to take the risk and us when we started of doing a new thing and to see the way the success and the results of guys actually getting there. has just given us more confidence. Like I think God was in that a lot more than just a hip marketing practice when we started it, ⁓ or a way to motivate guys across the decision line, just to see it again and again, if guys are really doing the work, finding the freedom. And, ⁓ that means the world to me because yeah, that's, know what it was like to be there and to see guys on the other side of the fence and know that their brains are changing and they're becoming normal, healthy adult men who can. engage hard things and not need to escape them and to respond to it with I want this is more and more necessary as the world goes from comfort to chaos. Well, was, mean, cause yeah, that's just so much to tackle there, but how do you guys, how did you approach this? Because this is a beast. I mentioned to to tackle, right? Because there's so many layers to helping men overcome this. There's probably like past wounds or even trauma or, you know, there's the spiritual side of it. There's the emotional, the physical side. So like from your guys' perspective, especially when you have that, you know, we will help you, you know, kick this in 12 months. Like how do you guys even tackle that first off? And like, how did you build a plan where you could feel comfortable to kind of basically make that guarantee? Mm hmm. Yeah, I'll hop in. as you mentioned at the beginning, are approaches. I mean, we take a comprehensive approach, truly a Catholic approach, like according to the whole person. People ask, are we Catholic? Is the program Catholic? It's like, well, yeah, our worldview is Catholic. Our neuroscience is Catholic. But really, like on a fundamental level, our view of the human person, we want to care for their body, their soul and their spirit. and to bring that comprehensive approach. Brain studies show that it takes two years for a brain to fully rewire. I've done a lot of 12 step work myself and I've always wrestled with the once an addict, always an addict, once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic, particularly one that's just labels are dangerous. We live under sentences and I was just less than an hour ago, 45 minutes ago talking to one of my clients and talking about how just in the spiritual world, there's a legal system. There's a way things work. And our words have power and our thoughts have power. And we can live under a sentence. Like growing up, my dad, I never saw my dad drink. He was a son of an alcoholic. I never met my grandpa. My dad's siblings died early of alcohol and drug abuse. My primary drugs of choice were alcohol and porn and masturbation. But my dad would always say growing up, reds are alcoholics. Like that's a fascinating sentence to hear. and to live under. And so we don't believe once always, well, fundamentally, son who does fall and fails and sins rather than sinner as primary identity or addict as primary identity, who's striving to barely make it into heaven. So it takes about two years for the brain to fully rewire. Neuroscience shows that, that you can completely rewire a brain as images of a brain addicted to heroin and a brain addicted to And what happens after a month of no viewing of porn and acting out or up to six months in a fully rewired brain after two years up to one year though, a significant amount can can can happen where a guy I was reminded of earlier, Joe, as you were talking, I forget what it was. It's when guys get free, they want to get back involved. They want to get skin in the game. And one of our guys who was in our pre he was a priest who was in our priest group wrapped up a couple of months ago. He just on Monday met with the bishop because he wants to share his story. He shared his story internally with our board a month or so ago and they were floored where he was acting out every day before the group. And then when he hopped on the call with the, the, with the board, he says, I haven't had a craving for three months. That's amazing. I haven't had a craving. He talked to the Bishop. Bishop's like, slow down cowboy. It's like, so basically the whole culture of the church and what we're swimming in, get anyways. will not allow him to share his story publicly right now, at least. But he wants to get his skin in the game. So my background is in exercise physiology. Joe's background is in neuroscience. We served in ministry for a combination of about 25 years. So we take a body, mind, spirit approach to the addiction. And we are really interested. We believe in the power of spiritual authority and the power of a St. Michael prayer and the power of renouncing. demons, but on a fundamental level, so much of our issues as men, and we're, would say we're probably equipped to work with 90 plus percent of the guys that are addicted to porn, which is your average church going guy who is even has a daily prayer life, but cannot stop looking at porn and masturbating. Why? What's the problem? Well, porn's not the problem. It's his brain's learned solution to the problem. I tell guys all the time, this really isn't for our conversation, a moral issue. So with the body-soul-spirit or body-mind-spirit approach, we really start with the body. We want to get curious of how is craving playing out in your brain and in your body? Because craving is not just the fact that you're horny. It's the fact that you've learned that this is a drug that works. Craving is really psychological or emotional discomfort masquerading as sexual arousal, or for me, often amasterated as craving for alcohol. craving for food, craving for substance. So we really start with the body. How are you holding, how does addiction play out in your brain and in your body? And then how do we ride that wave? And then we do some story work. But the big piece, I just wanna highlight what Joe is saying. mean, so many guys listening to this, might be just, lot of our guys we work with struggle with purpose. What's the purpose of my life and what's the meaning of my life in this world of triviality and just, I mean, we're scrolling ourselves to death and. numbing ourselves to death. And what's the purpose? got to engage our story. You got to look at your story. I forget Joe who was, heard it through Adam Young, but the purpose of counseling your kingdom, Dan Allender, Dan Allender, he talks about your kingdom. And we really talked to guys about this right away. We need to have hope and a vision and a compelling vision for who you're called to become. And generally speaking is to become a king, to become a good and noble king. Dan Allender talks about what's the purpose of counseling or healing or freedom for the freedom group? The purpose isn't just freedom, it's to reign as a king because the father wants to confer on you a kingdom. think Dallas Willis says the father is looking for men to whom he can bestow his power, but the story of most men is being entrusted with power and causing harm to themselves and others. And there's three questions he asks. He says, what do you love? What do you hate? And where have you been assaulted? What do you love? What do you hate? And it breaks open that word hate. He goes, we don't talk enough about hate in the church. And where have you been assaulted? And particularly with Joe, like Joe is just saying, you you're most equipped to serve the man that you used to be. Where have you been assaulted? Where is this trauma and wounds, abandonment, invasion in your own life? What do you love? I love a church on fire. I love a man that's set free. Like when I talk to a guy like this priest who I was mentioning earlier, who is set. free look out church look out world what do i hate in a word in a word i've been thinking about this a little bit lately is um and i hate it myself and and this is a misunderstood word but effeminacy and what is effeminacy it's not feminine it's a feminine and and i like how Aquinas talks about a femininity is really a weakness of soul that can't endure what is difficult and in a world Where comfort is everywhere. Weird. Weird. I've read a book recently, death by comfort. And, and we're numbing ourselves to death. We're being comfortable to death. We have a comfort crisis and we're effeminate. And I hate the effeminacy within my own heart. And I hate seeing men who are getting taken out of the knees, like Joe said. And it's so many of us. And if you're listening to this, you can, you can relate probably. It's like, you know, I know it's bad. I don't want to keep doing it. ⁓ but I'm just like, and it's taking these guys out of their knees. So we really take a We start for the first 19 weeks taking a physiological approach to the addiction. last thing I'll say, and I don't even know if I'm answering your question. You totally are. Doing a great job, I tell guys, hey, this isn't, in a way, for our conversation, I already said this, this isn't a moral issue. Meaning you don't want to do it, check. You confess it, you repent of it, check. What's the deal? I would propose that 99 or 100 % of the time, you act out because you just want to shift your state. You get to this place of, just got, you're feeling shame or you're bored or you're lonely or you're just stressed and you're anxious or you're procrastinating. keep procrastinating. As Jordan Peterson says, if you run from the dragon, it grows. If you run towards it, even if it kills you, you still win. But we have these negative appraisals of life and we're stressed and we're bored and your brain steps in and says, Hey, I know something that'll help. Help relieve, help you escape. And it works and it works. so we help in, I think last thing is I think what that helps guys do is get curious without shame, explore their story and their behavior and with compassion and understanding and to apply mercy to themselves with Jesus. Yeah. Yeah. The two things I would add to that is one, the Nick and I care more than anything about only handing guys things that actually work, that are proven to work. That are it's not just like, Hey, try this, see if it sticks. ⁓ it's like, no, this is proven to do this in your brain. If you do X I will happen. Right. And so, so start practicing X and come back and tell me how you experienced why happen because, that's the objective reality of like God set up all of our brains to work a certain way and they do. And he set up our physiology, our body to work a certain way. And it does. And so tapping into that genius of the way that he wired us, that's what porn has hijacked. So how do we take it back? Yeah. Right. If it's been robbed from us, the process isn't going to another source and begging that it'll just be magically fixed. It's no, it's how do I be cunning and intelligent in my capacity to be able to take back what is rightfully mine? We equip guys to do that and have them practice it. And the other thing that makes us Unique to a lot of the other digital solutions that are out there is that we do it with them, right? Cause there is, you know, I'd say 70 % of it is the objective reality of this is the way things are set up to work. Do this and stuff will start to change. And then there's the subjective, like you talked about the particular stories and individual experience and previous stuff that they've tried and resistance that they're having at one time or another. And that. You need somebody. mean, as, as I think all men desperately desire to be fathered. Like I want to be shown the way. And that, and, and that's why we've set up our coaching structure to be a coach working with one cohort of eight guys, eight ish guys. Most groups are somewhere between six and 10 eights, average eight guys following them through the course of the year. And then meeting with those guys outside of the group meetings individually on a one-on-one basis. To not just give them information, ready, set, go apply information, but I want to know you deeply and specifically it help you apply this stuff in a way that's deeply relevant to your reality and experience. that's, mean, frankly, I think that's what I never had and needed more of and have needed more of in many domains in my life is someone to show me the way. Right? When it comes to emotional regulation and, and development or under development, where, where did we miss on that? Well, the church never, there was no program in the church that taught me how to handle my emotions and to learn how to deal with them healthily. My dad never gave that to me. My mom never gave that to me. My peers definitely didn't give that to me. So where do I, where do I learn? And again, this is, this is, think something that brings incredible relief to guys we work with is fundamentally you're not a pleasure seeking buffoon. Yeah. Right. That, the sexuality nature of it is. It is pernicious because sexuality is so closely tied to our identity more than alcohol or an external substance that we might take in that there is, there is that dimension going on and to ignore that would be foolish. But that when I'm really looking for in using it, like Nick said, is to be okay again. I want to be, I want to be okay again. And I have no tools other than this to really effectively find okay again, to get back into, you know, some psychologist. the window of tolerance to get back into a world in which I can handle and deal with. so teaching men how to do that, and, you know, I hesitate to use the word fathering them, but I think in a certain way, fathering them in how to develop that domain of their life is I think a particular genius of our approach and process, because in different domains in our life, I would also say that Nick and I have been deeply fathered by other older men and it has changed the trajectory of our lives in a powerful and specific way. And so I think that's, I think that's part of it is, is the mentorship coaching dimension of what we're doing of actually getting into the trenches. Say I've been where you are. I am where you want to be come follow me and I'll show you the way. Yeah. And I think, I think men, I think men really want that in very few of us have it. And so, you know, Nick and I both brought up examples already, just like guys that you know, more than just like, Hey, we'll help you for the rest of your life. You need it. Like many of the guys that we work with have become very dear to us in, in, in either a peer relationship or a mentor relationship where we would give skin off our back for the guys we work with. You know, one of our core values is actually care. Like, like we're not, we don't want to just do this to get you to an outcome. And then it's like, see ya. Yeah. Good. That was hell like, I never want to lose the same sort of vigor and desire I had with the first group I ever led. Because to me, that group was life or death for, my, our fledgling dream, you know, and now that things are more established in routine and it's like, can depend on an infrastructure around us. It's like, no, I like, I'll go chase down a guy. Like if I haven't seen a dude in a while, it's like, bro, where, where are you? I miss you. I'm I. I don't, I want you to be in this and I don't want you paying for something that you're not getting value for. This has nothing to do with me getting mine. This is like, I want to be in it with you. And, I just, I think it's rare that guys experience that. And that's where a lot of the digital solutions and even, think to some degree, like the, the confidentiality reality of a, of a counseling relationship, the guys can find like, ⁓ I see my counselor at the grocery store and they pretend I don't exist. Like. Yeah. Like if I see you in public, dude, I'm like, you and I are going to have a good, healthy hug. Like I'm going to be so excited to see when we, I ran, I met a guy for the first time at the seat conference. The focus seat conference was just randomly there. And I didn't know. I just saw him in this throng of people. And I was like, dude, like no way. It's like he and I live multiple States away. And it's like, I was so jacked up to meet that guy in person. And so I think that's also an element of it is like the capacity to actually care. Like the opposite of addiction isn't sobriety. The opposite of addiction is connection. We say the opposite of addiction is communion, right? Like the, what's the source and summit of our faith. It's communion. Communion is the embodiment of something that's like, again, not to say that, the Eucharist is everywhere. It's like communion is more than just the Eucharist. Like what does communion actually look like? And I think we put a lot of hope and faith in like a future heavenly communion that isn't just going to mass for 30 minutes a day or every, every Sunday. There's like some kind of tangible body, mind, spirit reality that is in wrapping. Right. And like, how do we get that here on earth? What's what, what do I need from this life that it could give me to allow me to taste heaven? Not so that I would want to hold on to earth. instead of wanting to go to heaven, but so that I can bring heaven to earth because it certainly desperately needs it. Coffee and prayer. It's the perfect blend. Mystic Monk Coffee isn't just another cup of coffee. It's handcrafted by the Carmelite monks of Wyoming, roasted with care and infused with prayer. Whether you're starting your morning or fueling your day, Mystic Monk Coffee has you covered. It offers rich, bold flavors that are as divine as their mission. By choosing Mystic Monk, you're not just enjoying exceptional coffee, but you're supporting a community of monks dedicated to their work, to prayer, and to the church. It's coffee with a cause. So what are you waiting for? Visit mysticmonkcoffee.com and experience the brew that's fueling faith and flavor. Yeah, you guys touched on a couple things and Joe the the communion aspect I wanted to talk to you guys about that too because you know, it's it's it's honestly one of Satan's greatest lies that he tells especially men I think is Nick you kind of touched on it to the importance of not making this part of your identity right like labeling it like I am like a porn addict or this is just what I do or this is normal or things like that too because First of all, by being vulnerable with other men, the greatest lies are people are going to think of me less. And it's the exact opposite. If someone's vulnerable with me, I'm going to think more highly of them. Because like, first of all, thank you for sharing that with me. But like, Joe, just the fact that you are still connected with these guys, it's because you guys are going through a challenge together. This is hard stuff. And you guys are pretty clear about that. This is not easy to do, but it will work. But just because it will work doesn't mean it's going to be easy. And just the fact that you have that skin in the game, think just really speaks volumes to men. And all the success stories you guys have on your website too just kind of counters that as well. And Nick, wanted to... Because you guys talked about the brain and the neuroplasticity. And I love that you guys talk about that as well because I'm trained as a physical therapist. So like I work with people who are like post-stroke. and things like that. And just to see the transformation from like one day one post stroke to like day 300 and the changes because the amount that the brain is like, yes, you can't use this, but your brain is adapting. And I was using this instead. And just to see that kind of in real time, it's fascinating. ⁓ But I want to ask you guys too, and because it's already 715 already, this is going fast. But because you talked about the spiritual aspect of it. And I'm sure you guys, especially being ⁓ Catholic yourself, have gone through probably some spiritual warfare as well, especially with something like porn, where, you you talk to any exorcist, sexual sin is a huge gateway for the demonic activity, whether it's oppression, obsession, even possession for some people. Have you guys found, ⁓ just in yourselves, things that things that you can't really explain, like trying to take down the freedom group or just I guess the spiritual realm, maybe speak to that too, in terms of the clients that you guys see as well in terms of getting them connected to their their community, whether it be Catholic or Christian or some sort of faith community because that I mean, you're going to get attacked spiritually. When you're like, No, I do not want to do this anymore. Because Satan's like, Yes, you do. Because that is his easiest way to draw us in and to lead us away from God. Spiritual attack? Is that what you're asking? Yes, I am. Absolutely. I think the way that I was trained in spiritual attack was I perceived it and reacted to it as a threat. Something to try to pray away. Like I'm praying against this thing to get it away from me. Most of the examples of things that came to mind when you asked about things that we faced for starting the Freedom Group that I can't help but make the connection between them and this work. ⁓ has been more in line with God allowing things to occur to develop us as as that that are evil in nature to allow us to develop as men you know in line with what scripture tells us about trial and tribulation to expect it to occur right and ⁓ the shining example of that for me is my son's my son was diagnosed with brain cancer ⁓ October, 2024. And that was multiple years removed from me doing, doing this work. And I realized in all of that, that, it, had little to do with porn in God's eyes that it had to do with preparing me to shoulder the life that he was inviting me into. And in that, we would say, ⁓ tagline that we, that we own frequently inside our process is that pain is the path and discomfort is the teacher. Right. praying away evil is, often times I think used as trying to develop capacity for a more comfortable life. Yeah. Right. Like life has been so hard, sprinkle holy water on all four doors and like hope it gets better next month. And it's like, but what if he's allowing that because you require it to become a saint. What, what if he's, what is, what if he's, I mean, this was my experience with like Looking back on it, my gratitude for having dealt with porn, I would have loved to have been done with it every time I went to an adoration chapel when I was in high school and I was on a high school retreat and they asked, what do you want to leave at the foot of the cross or at the foot of the tabernacle or this weekend? My answer was always the same thing. God, I want you to fix my sexual brokenness. I want you to fix my sexual issues as an adult man. As a a 33 year old now leading a family for young kids at home, having just gone through what I went through, Isaiah, if God hadn't given me the experience of having to wrestle with freedom and to learn how to inhabit freedom, not just get free as like a stamp of I did it, but like learn how to go through something hard and come out the other end with some tools and with some skills and having developed some capacity that I didn't previously have. I would have gotten smoked by eight months living in a hospital watching my son go through hell. Was that demonic? Absolutely. I think cancer is demonic. I don't think it'll exist in the kingdom of heaven. Did God allow it for some mystery that I don't understand in my son's life, in my life, in our family's life? Did it have something to do with the devil coming against what he has here? Yes, is God using it for good in a way that that building building ⁓ a reality in my life that I've wanted my entire life. And like Nick said is like deeply interwoven into my desires and in my own story and aspirations and like who I feel like he's called me to be. Absolutely. And so again, I think oftentimes that the demonic and like, again, this is not an argument away from like Is there oppression and possession? Absolutely. Can porn be a gateway into really dark things? Absolutely. Totally. But I think the thing that gets missed is when we only deal with the spiritual, we miss how interwoven and interconnected the spiritual and the physical and the spiritual are interwoven together. in a way that can't be linked. And usually we think about that in the ways of like, ⁓ someone's possessed or someone in, you know, a spirit is living in a house. so physical cabinets bang or like weird stuff happens to the family and they're all always getting sick. Like I think it goes the other, it goes the other way too. ⁓ in that what I participate in a physical, my emotional mental state. mean, I remember listening to one of the popular exorcist files. Maybe it was. psychologists that works with some of the top exorcists and he said like 90 % of the inventories we go to do for people that think they have oppression or ⁓ possession are sleep disorders. Wow. Interesting. And again, is that to like ignore or minimize the fact that like the devil isn't real? Like is it? No, he's he is deeply involved in, in, in engaged in all of this in an attempting to work, all spend all of his time. and all of his cronies time on our destruction. And that is playing out in the in the natural world. One of the examples we frequently use is like, I think there's this belief that's existed in the church and in different sectors or spaces around fasting. That like, it's wrong for a Catholic to think of fasting as good for their body, that it should be for the mortification and theoretical destruction of their mortal flesh. I hate to break it to you, but fasting is one of the best, if not the, it is the best thing that you can do for your physical health. ⁓ yeah. 100%. So it's, it is, it is foolish of us to say that, well, no, this is only spiritual. It's only for it's only for mortification. It's only, it's only to develop our spiritual faculty and capacity to make us more sensitive. But while we're doing that, our cells are repairing themselves and cleaning out the garbage and killing cancerous tissue and cell like. Is that spiritual? Right. And so, so all this stuff, I think that's our perspective and approach on it. ⁓ really comes, comes down to that is grace builds on, on nature. And paying attention to the nature and how I've been developed in the natural realm is really, really helpful and useful because 90 % of the time I would say significantly more than the guys we work with. is a natural issue. And is it dark and, and, and, twisted and is the demonic involved in it? Absolutely. So often the guys that are getting free. And I would say this is the case for myself that I didn't, my prayer, the way I prayed didn't really change throughout the time that I lived, still kept up the cadence and rhythm of frequenting the sacraments and how I use confession and, and engaging in personal prayer. Like none of that stuff changed for me. It was starting to see it as, as an underdeveloped emotional regulation tool that was really key for me to be able to do that. So again, in, in responding and kind of landing the plane here, I think Fundamentally, it's helpful and important to not over relate to it. Maybe most particularly because when we do that, we usually start to relate to the demonic like a threat. And again, in my experience with my son with cancer, wasn't like, ⁓ Satan, bring it on. Like, I'm strong enough to handle it. like, God, I want him to be healed and praying for his healing and desiring his freedom. And God, if you want this, I want this. If you're willing it, I will it. Do I believe it's evil? Absolutely. But am I willing to engage the suffering of what's been handed to me? I will. And I think that approach does so much to be able to, because it helps remove what might be facade or shadows on the wall that I think Satan can use to, I'm big and scary and powerful, Versus like what scripture tells us is the gates of hell won't stand against us. Well, how will the gates of hell not stand against me? need more. If the gates of hell are not going to stand against me because I live in the kingdom of heaven, I need to become more like heaven. Well, how do I become more like heaven? Well, way that it works with humans is he allows us to suffer, develop, develop our capacity to be able to, to stand in heaven and bear the weight of that responsibility. to bear the weight of that calling, to bear the weight of that freedom. and, ⁓ that's been, that's been my experience and I see it reflected in the lives of the saints of, yeah, both the way that they engaged with frontal attacks of the evil one. They weren't, it wasn't like wild, you know, blind swinging combat. was like, Hey bud, there you are. I guess we're doing this, you know, like, and, if God's letting you show up and attack me frontally, then so be it. Let's go. Yeah, because I have him. Well, hi everyone. My name is Father Dominic Couturier with Manly Catholic Podcasts. And I'd like to take a few seconds to share with you about Harmel Academy of the Trades. Harmel Academy of the Trades is an all male Catholic trade school here in Grand Rapids, Michigan. It's a one year, two year, three year program where we're dedicated to building a community of prayer, work and study. All the men are exposed to a variety of trades, Havoc, electrical, plumbing, welding, machine systems, technology. We have multiple programs for individuals who are interested in certain kinds of trades. All the men work together, trade together, live on campus together. We actually moved to a new campus as well too, bigger living space, bigger dorms, bigger lab. So we're growing. So really excited about that with you. So if you're interested in checking out Harmel Academy of the Trades, please visit us at harmelacademy.org. where can find out more information about this wonderful all male Catholic trade school. Thank you. Yeah, Joe, that's such a really important point. And I'm glad you brought it up is, I think we, especially in the church, have a tendency sometimes we can go the extremes, right? Like it's, I just need to pray it away. If I'm not praying it away, then, you know, like something's wrong. It's like, no, like there are actual physical tools. you can use like are you working out? Are you getting enough sleep? Like I just know for me if I like just don't even get enough sleep. Totally. Like my inhibitions and like lust starts to creep up and like all these all these things like if sleep is like one of my cornerstones and now you guys talk I listened to your biohack episode earlier today too. Joe by the way the coffee I'm right there with you on the coffee. Yeah baby. But like like cold plunging, like that actually changes things in your brain when you cold plunge or when you work out or when you are fasting, like you said, that is such an underrated part and you can combine the two, right? You can combine the spiritual aspect of it. Yes, of course you can use it for mortification, but there's also the physical benefits of it too. And it's silly to just like totally ignore that part when it's like, no, you can do this for your physical health as well. But of course you can do it for spiritual. I think we often sway and we try to do it whether it's just physical or just spiritual. But, you know, I just love that you brought that up because so I think a lot of programs fail because they miss that point. Like they either make it only spiritual or only physical. It's like, no, God made us with a body and a soul. And it's okay to attack both of those fronts versus one or the other. Yeah, my life and I don't think you can train or teach guys in a in a large setting of like, okay, now we're all going to like test your purity issue and see if it's spiritual, like, and that's where I go back to the coaching element of what we do is like getting into a guy's life. mean, Nick has shared with me, and I've had similar experiences of powerful prayer encounters that we were led in to doing with our clients that like, totally blew the door open and like Jesus totally showed up and met them there and was really, really powerful. ⁓ and we're like, we love that and are, and are open to it. Like we would never tell a guy like, absolutely not. You're not allowed to go see an exorcist. That's, that's not going to help. Like if you feel like there's something on your life that you need to deal with, like go deal with it. That absolutely in the same way that we would say, like there's certain things that happen in marriages or relationships or significant emotional issues that come up with go see a counselor. Like if someone came to, you know, if someone came to me in a process of like, dude, my back's killing me and like, like it's a huge cue and trigger every time I feel like just spirals, like I tell them to go see a PT. Yeah. Right. Right. Like in, no, you know, in, in, our approach is again, in dealing with the whole person, that's not to say we have all the answers. And we're we we give a guy everything he needs. There's a lot of guys that it's like, hey, this is we're going to get in it with you and figure out with you what you need and then connect you to the right resource and support so that in this time frame, you can do all the work you need to do rather than like, hey, let's let's try this. Let's see, you know, like, let's try the spiritual and see if that's like and I think that's where the reality of the world we live in is like stuff manifests. When emotional stuff, when it's ready to come out, when there's trust and safety for it to come out and spiritual stuff, when it gets exposed, when it can no longer live in darkness. Like you said, when a guy is starting to get legitimate freedom, that stuff might start to emerge. And it's like, okay, we'll deal with it when it emerges. Right. But to over relate to it and, and, you know, like, again, in my experience of like, Hey, this is a huge gateway. And like, there's probably the demonic, like hiding behind the screen and like look out for demonic activity. And like, I mean, I've grown up in environments like, you're going to lead a retreat this weekend. Like, you're going to experience all kinds of like crazy supernatural stuff. And again, is that a totally unhelpful framework to think about? No. While at the same time, our brains are predictive machines. They look for what we tell it to look for. So if, if, if wake up every day and like the demonic is looking out about it. Yeah. Totally. What am I going to see? I'm going to see darkness, right? Rather than like, God, where are you? Yeah, I want to find I want to find you again. Right. So the John Eldridge prayer, says he goes out, it was pretty much every meeting he walked around the parking lot and just God there you are again. Right to reconnect with the Creator, the one who gives us the capacity and the power and the supernatural strength to deal with our natural circumstances and to become powerful enough that the gates of hell could not stand against us. other thing, communion, would propose is the greatest spiritual warfare. In the sense of what we've been talking about, the enemy wants to divide. That's his, he wants to separate us from God, us from ourselves, us from each other, us from creation. These are the original four fractures of the fall. Spiritual us and God, psychological us and ourselves, body, us in creation, ecological and us in other social. it's, it's, it's righteous living. Like that's the biggest conviction in my life. Like the greatest warfare I can participate in is holiness. Really? Like that's the word becoming as Joe is saying, heaven becoming divinized, which is crazy that we're called to become divinized or the East. calls it theosis to be partakers of divine nature. And Teresa, once in while, just the other day, she asked, how are you and Joe doing? Because she knows that Joe and I's relationship is critically important. He wants to separate me and Joe. I'm not taking too much credit, but he wants to separate. How am I doing with my wife? How am I doing with my kids? How am I doing with my God? How am I doing with myself? And am I staying connected? Am I living in communion? And that's just, yeah, am I engaging in the sacraments? Am I stepping outside as John Eldritch does and getting connected with the real and with God? And then interpretation is a big key. I don't believe there's a devil behind it, hiding behind every rock. I believe there's two devils hiding behind every rock. just kidding. But just like a month ago, just a month ago. Joe, mean, how much is a spiritual, how much is an actual sometimes it doesn't even matter really. At the end of the day, the father is fathering us and everything. this flat tire and attack from the devil or is it a flat tire? I mean, does it matter actually? Okay. Renounce the devil and then fix the tire with the father. He's fathering you in it. And that's, that's the interpretation I think is, is the world would call it a, a, ⁓ a growth mindset. We call it being fathered by God every moment. And I love, just pulled up today's data from the Liturgy of the Hours morning prayer. Hebrews two, says, indeed it was fitting that when bringing many sons to glory, God, for whom and through whom all things exist should make their leader and the work of salvation perfect suffering. That's it. Being perfect through suffering. And in his moments where I'm just like, okay, gotta keep, gotta keep. And we're not white knuckling. We're willing. Am I willing to show up? And it's just like a month ago, maybe just a couple of weeks ago, I'm just having a hell of a day. And Joe calls me. I'm like, dude, I'm struggling. I think I need to take a nap because Teresa says the nap, that sometimes a nap is the best spiritual warfare. I'm sure the rest of it goes to me too. And in like, in a moment when I just want to hide, Joe, somehow you just reached out, you just needed to connect. You needed to connect. And that led to, hey, we just gotta pray. We don't know. Holy Spirit, I owed Him, know how to pray, so come and pray within us. And we took authority and we were announced and then we showed up. We're living in reality. We're living as sons, being glorified, being divinized. And so just want to double down on what Joe's saying and just, it's simple. It's having a father-centered worldview and it's showing up and he's deeply committed to raising up mature sons. He's deeply committed to my formation. He's deeply committed to my maturation and my healing. And it simply requires a willingness. talk a lot about willingness. Are you willing to live in reality? It's not white knuckling. It's willing one step at a time. The master from Nazareth taught us first that 24 hour rule. Don't worry about tomorrow. One day at a time. long as he's got enough evil for himself, just worry about today. Show up and live and be perfected through suffering as our leader was. Amen. Yeah. As my good friend, Dr. Dan Schneier would say, just embrace the suck. It's going to suck, but just embrace it. Yeah. Hey, I know you guys got to get going. Where can the listeners find out more about your group sign up for? I know you guys got a lot of resources on your website. So does anything guys want to share and I'll give you guys the final word before we let you go. Yeah. Our website's the best place. Thefreedomgroup.co.co. If you type in .com, you will not get to us. It's .co. Thefreedomgroup.co. We have a free porn use assessment. ⁓ Access a guys can get into our freedom community if they don't want to be in a group It's kind of a more accessible go at your own pace get some resources get community with other guys that are going after this in their own life And then there's the the intensive process we've talked a lot about here our freedom groups in which guys can schedule a discovery call Even if you're not intending on getting into a freedom group, it's a great place to learn kind of what you're interested in, how we can help. And every time we have a discovery call, our sole objective and desire is to find the right fit for the guy. It's not about convincing them into a solution. It's about helping them understand what our solution is and how it could help him. But if it's not us, we'd love to find what it is because, you know, we don't want a guy who's in a place where he's ready to do the work. gets off that call and goes back to the way that things were to have to use that opportunity as, as a moving to, a better place. And so it's a great privilege and honor. get to talk to a good number of guys every single week that we've never met before and start what oftentimes turns into a lifelong relationship. So it's pretty as socialites, ⁓ extroverts. It's kind of fun for Nick and I. to make new friends at a weekly basis. So yeah, that's the best place to find us the freedom group.co you can get connected again to all kinds of things. And if the last thing I mentioned, if, porn's not your issue, we do have a community for guys that it's called the Kingmakers community, guys that are building an operating system for their life and getting the accountability and support to actually build it. So looking at all the different domains of your life, thinking about what you do in a business to run a healthy, good business applied to the personal life. I mean, every domain relationships, work, fitness, spirituality, et cetera. And so yeah, really fun, cool landing spot for guys that. That are really taken hold in their life and now we're looking to build. ⁓ and so a lot of guys that are come from freedom groups go to that, but it's kind of 50 50 guys that are come from a freedom group and guys that have found freedom in other places or have never dealt with pornography in their life, but want to go after building kingship and want to become the kind of man that guy, God can. depend on and raise them up to rule their kingdom as a good king. that's the Kingmakers community. All that can be found at the freedomgroup.com. Awesome. Awesome. I will leave links in the show notes for everything you mentioned, Joe. So really, again, really appreciate the work you guys are doing. I just think it's so important. I love that. Again, you guys encompass the whole person, not just one specific aspect. So thank you guys for the work that you're doing. Thanks for inviting us in, man. This has been awesome. It's great to meet you. And, and like I said about the rest of the guys we get to talk about, got a new friend. There we go. That's right. This is great. And, ⁓ yeah, building the kingdom, like we all need each other. And sometimes it's a prayer. Sometimes it's a hug. Sometimes it's a wrestling match. That's right. Sometimes it's a long conversation and the more people we can build in our life that we could have any of those things with the better off the richer we are. And so it's awesome to meet you, James. Love what you're doing here. Yeah, God's got calling and invitation on your life and to be doing what you're doing in the manly Catholic, but also in your practice of getting people back to health is deeply spiritual work in its own right. And it's an honor and privilege to meet you. Well, thank you. I really appreciate the kind words and thank you all to our listeners for listening. Until next time, go out there and be a saint. Brothers, thank you for listening. But do not let this end here. this episode stirred something inside of you, do not keep it to yourself. Share it with a brother who needs to hear it. A man who is tired, a man who's drifting, a man who's under attack and does not even know it. This podcast exists because the battle is real and souls are at stake. If this work has helped you, please support the channel so we can keep fighting. Your support will help ignite the mission to keep us going. We need your help, brothers. I know you will come through for us. Pray for us because we need it as well. The enemy does not rest. and neither can we. Now go and live this. Be a saint, not tomorrow, but today. Choose the hard thing, reject sin, get back up, go to confession, pray your rosary, love your family, and carry your cross without complaint.