Ep 217: Real History Isn't Safe, But It's True with Philip Campbell

James Caldwell: This is the Manly Catholic, the podcast that calls you out of the shadows and into the fight. Here we forge men into warriors for Christ, husbands, fathers, and leaders who refuse to kneel to the modern world's lies. No more passivity, no more excuses, no more lukewarm faith. This is your battle cry, your call to arms. The time for weakness is over. It's time to fight. Welcome to the Manly Catholic. Let's get to work. Hello, all. Welcome to another episode of the Manly Catholic. This is James, your host, and tonight I have with me a guest I'm very excited to speak with. We have Philip Campbell. Phil, welcome to the Manly Catholic podcast. I am so glad to be here. Now, for those of you who do not know Phil, he is very well known for his four volume story of civilization series from Tan Books. He's also written many other books, including The Heroes and Heretics of the Reformation. And several other works on church history, all written from a Catholic perspective, that treats the past not with a list of dates, but as a living story of saints and sinners shaping the world. He's taught history, economics, and logic for homeschool connections for over fifteen years and now runs his own publishing house. And Phil, I'm gonna butcher that. So I'm gonna let you say the name of your own publishing house. Yes, Kruakin Hill Press. Kruoken Hill Press. And before that, which I'm very excited to also dive into, he was the mayor of Howell, Michigan. Which I can't wait to hear about that wonderful journey into politics for you, Phil. Yeah. But before we dive into all that, Phil, I think we'll start with the Saint Michael prayer and then we'll I'll ask you my my icebreaker question, so to speak. All right. Okay. So we'll begin in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Saint Michael the Archangel. Defend us in battle. Be our protection against the wickedness, wickedness snares and the devil. May God rebuke him, and we humbly pray and do thou, O Prince of the Heavenly Host, by the power of God, cast in the hell, Satan. Satan and all the evil spirits who prowl about the world. Amen. Amen. Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Alright, Phil. You know the question. If you could be the patron saint of anything, what would it be and why? Well, there's really only one answer and that would be the patron saint of Dr. Pepper and probably maybe carbonated beverages overall. my students know me very well as a Dr. Pepper aficionado. it's it it's quite an established part of my reputation amongst the young folk. I'm always seen with a Dr. Pepper in my hand. And students even send me Dr. Peppers in the mail. Like this this year for my birthday, I received three twenty free three twelve packs of Dr. Pepper from a student in the mail. I will get random boxes and there's Dr. Pepper in it. whenever I go around the country or visit someone for a a homeschooling event, they they lay out like they will get Dr. Pepper just for me. Kind of like as if I was a rock star, like requesting my own private meal. They'll be like, We got you some Dr. Pepper. So that would be the only logical answer is the the patron saint of Dr. Pepper. classic. What what is about what is about Dr. Pepper? It's got twenty-three delicious flavors and it comes from a spring f spring fed water source in Plano, Texas. It's delicious. It is pr yeah. And I'm not even gonna ask about Mr. Pibb. 'Cause I I know that's just basically heresy if we bring out Mr. Pibb. Okay. Well, I will drink a Mr. Pibb in a pinch. Okay. Well, I think Mr. Mr. Pibb is legit. the heresy is drinking like Dr. Thunder or like the the the Walmart or the Costco brands, you know. Dr. Thunder? I don't think I've heard of Dr. Thunder. Yeah, that's the Walmart brand, Dr. Pepper. Dr. Yeah. Wow. Okay. Well, Phil, if if we ever meet I I mean you're not that far. You are in Michigan, so if we have a meet, I'll be sure to remember Dr. Pepper is is your jam. That's the way to go, yeah. All right. All right. Before we dive into the homeschool stuff, because you know, as everyone knows, my wife and I were taking the plunge. We are we're converting full school full blown whole school homeschooling. Tell me about your journey into politics in the good old city of Howe, Michigan. okay. Well I was born and raised in Howell, Michigan. so it was the only home I'd ever known. I lived I when I when I grew up I bought a house right downtown, lived in the city, lived there for many, many years, and was not very interested in politics for a long time. I didn't really care about it. And then as often happens in stories of local politics, there was some unpopular boondoggle construction project that got half the city angry. and I got very angry about it because it was right near my neighborhood. And I started toying with the idea of getting into politics because I figure, you know, I was thirty-eight years old or no, thirty-one years old at the time. And I was like, I've lived here for thirty years. Like I know enough people, you know, to to get my my family'd been here since nineteen seventy eight, you know. I was like, I should I should run for mayor. And I I did a little bit of research, kind of got the idea in my head put together a campaign and and just started going door to door and talking to people, just being like, hey, this construction project was really dumb. It's a waste of money. I won't do stuff like that. You know, and and it really kind of took off. And then I got a lot of support. And then a lot of like the dissenting residents and bigwigs of the the community started throwing their support and money behind me. And all of a sudden it became like a very serious campaign. And the the mayor I was running against, she she took didn't take me very seriously at first. but then it got kind of serious and she didn't you know, she she kinda realized too late that it was a serious threat when my signs were up all over town. And then I defeated her in the primary with sixty six percent of the vote, which is considered a landslide in elections. so Nobody at City Hall was ready for me to come in. I don't think they thought I was gonna win. I remember I had a very awkward meeting where they they brought me in to a long table and it was like there was the the chief of police and the city manager and the the director of services and all the people there and I was just like this 30 and I and I sat down, I was like, guys, look, I'll be honest, I didn't expect to win. I don't know what I'm doing. I I wan I just I need everybody's help and support to help me understand. What honest honest opening speech. Yeah, yeah. And they were and they were very gracious. They they saw very soon that I was like that I was like willing to learn and they took time to explain things to me. And then I kind of earned their respect over time. my second term, nobody even bothered to run against me. I I ran unopposed. So so yeah, they were very gracious to me and I was gracious too. I was not one of those I was not a flamethrower politician. This was actually before Trump was in office, so politics was a little bit more civil. and things went very you know, they weren't always smooth, but it was a learning experience and you know, people ask me what's the greatest thing I did when I was mayor. I really you know, being mayor is a bunch of mundane things. It's a bunch of stuff about like getting the garbage from point A to point B and getting the water to flow where it's supposed to flow and figuring out how to allocate money from account A to account B. So there's nothing really glamorous about it, you know. But I was given free ice cream for the entirety of my tenure by the Dairy Queen in town because the Dairy Queen had these garbages outside that were always overflowing. And and I came in one day to get some Dairy Queen and she was like, Mr. Mayor, like why can't they ever you know, get the garbage out and it's been sitting here for three days, it's all overflowing. And I was like, let me make a phone call and I like made a phone call and then within like thirty minutes they came and emptied it. And then she was like, I love you. You're the best. You could have free ice cream for the r as long as you're mayor. And, you know, I don't know if that was like unethical or I mean it wasn't a bribe 'cause it was after the fact. It was definitely a reward, but you know, it was Don't come after Phil, How Michigan, all right? It was after the fact. It was ice cream and I'm only human, so that was pretty epic. But you know, I actually resigned from office a little bit early. I was still a few months out from the end of my term. and I resigned to write Story of Civilization, because I was trying to get the the contract for it during my second term, because I'd heard about the project through the grapevine. And it wasn't the many people don't know this. The the project was not my idea. People will often ask me, like, what prompted you to write Story of Civilization? And I just have to honestly say, Tan came up with it and they were looking for an author to execute their vision. so they were kind of like they were kind of putting feelers out through the Catholic world looking for that author who could execute the vision. And I heard about it and I was hoping to get the job. And I I did and I was mayor when I got the job. And then once I saw what a law what a large commitment it was and how much, you know, they wanted out of it, I didn't want to have to split my focus, especially since I was still kind of a lesser known entity at the time. I thought I don't want to make a bad impression by being too busy and not giving sufficient thought to this project. So I put in my resignation and left office I think eight months early. To focus on civilization. So what a story. You know, as long as you weren't bride with Dr. Pepper, Phil, I think I think the people of Hal Michigan can understand. It was just ice cream. No, we had, you know, we had a I did have a scandal though. I call it Popcorn Gate. Yeah. Okay. Let's hear it. Popcorn gate. This is the first time I've ever talked about Popcorn Gate, I think publicly, but we had people one reason I will never go into politics again is because of how awful people are to you. they just like Americans are so jaded and cynical about politics, they will take anything and make it into something awful. And so one day I was I was I had bought a me and my kids had like one of those stone tumbling things, you know, that you can tumble stones and polish them. And we were polishing stones and then I went into town to we were having like a festival in town, like our annual festival. And I was walking around and I st had the polished stones in my pocket and I went to I was walking around saying hello to all the vendors, which I always did as mayor. I walked around and greeted everybody. And there was a there was a tent with some high school kids selling popcorn to fundraise for something. And I went to talk to them and they're like, the mayor's here. they were like stoked that the mayor came to talk to them. And I was like, This popcorn smells really good. You got you know, and I was like, I'd buy some, but I didn't bring any money. And I kind of jokingly, I took out the polished stones and I said, All I have is these polished stones. And this kid was like, I love polished stones. Like, if if you give me those polished stones, I'll give you a bag of this is like a one dollar bag of popcorn, you know. So he's like, Do you want to trade? And I was like, Sure. So I gave him the polished stones and he gave me the popcorn. So I think two days later I get I'm out at the city hall and I get called in to a meeting with like a couple people and they're like, Mr. Mayor, like w there's you know, we heard about, you know, this incident that happened at the festival, and I was like, What incident? And they said, Well, according to multiple witnesses, you went up to the popcorn stand, demanded popcorn for free, and offered only a rock in payment and forced them to give you popcorn. And I was you know, I had to set the record straight and I was like, no, that's absolutely not what happened. And you know, I don't think you know, I don't think the kids said that. I think it was their parents, but I was like, how awful. It was like the f the most innocent little thing. and somebody tried to accuse me of extorting popcorn. So that's the sort of stuff you deal with. That's insane. Yeah, and it's it it hasn't changed at all. I mean, that's just in a small town and movies look at I know. Imagine if were the governor or something, you know? my gosh, I know. And it's like there this governor is trying to extort children to give them free popcorn and Yeah, as I said. It was like Popcorn Gate is funny. But anyhow, yeah. That's it's off it's awful. Popc popcorn gate. Well, hey, so okay. So in in office, you have survived Popcorn Gate. I did. And so so Tan, you heard about this Tan project. So did you like Reach out to them. Did they hear about you? How did kind of that connection Yeah so come together? So Connor Gallagher, who's the president of Tan, is friends with Maureen Whitman, who's the president and founder of Homeschool Connections, who I teach for. And when Tan was putting out the feelers throughout the community, he had mentioned this to Maureen. And Maureen was like, I know the guy you want. You want my history teacher, Philip. She's like he's been teaching for at that time it was like seven or eight years. and he's really good talking to kids. She was like, you don't wanna get like a you don't wanna get like a PhD guy, you wanna get a guy who talks to children regularly and knows how to explain things. So that kind of got Connor's mind rolling and he r they reached out to me and they told me about the project. And I was I was pretty thrilled. and I knew it was a big deal because I got a call and the whole like upper echelon of Tan was on the phone. Like I called and there was on speakerphone. They're like, This is Connor Gallagher, president of Tan Books. I'm here with this guy, this guy, this lady, this guy. And they were all on speakerphone sitting around a table. I was like, my gosh. so they told me about the What were you doing? What what were you doing, Phil, when you got the call? Do you remember? Yeah, it was it was during the summer and I had a summer job I would work at. I was I was working in the office of a wildlife control company answering phones. So I was like had like a I had like a desk job when I wasn't teaching, and I had to step outside. And I remember I was standing in the driveway of the wildlife control company taking the call, and then they you know they told me about it and they asked me to submit a sample chapter. So I wrote a chapter, and that chapter actually made it into the final book. It's the It's in volume one that you're doing. It's the chapter on the Persian war. that was the great that was the pilot chapter. Okay. So I sent that to them and they called me back and they said, This is like ninety percent what we want, but we want a few tweaks. And can you write one more chapter? And I wrote a second chapter and I can't remember which one was the the next one, but it was another chapter that made it into the book. And then after the second chapter, they called and they offered me the the job. And so once I got the job, I put in my resignation from from being mixed once I understood how big the job was, and how how I mean this this this series of books is huge. It is, you know, it's been 11 years now. we're in the 11th year of Story of Civilization. It's still going in fact, it's still breaking into new markets. It hasn't even plateaued yet. It's still rising. It is the most popular. Catholic history curriculum in the English language. so it's it has surpassed my expectations and it continues to surpass my expectations, which I'm very, very humbled by when I think about it because I didn't really know what I was doing at the time. It wasn't something I was looking for. It was just something that kind of dropped into my life and then I, you know, I put in for it, did the best I could, and they liked me and we had a good working relationship. And I should say I've always loved working with Tan. They are my I've worked with many publishers over the years now. and I mean tan kinda made me. now I'm at a point where I'm so well known that I can just call a publisher and say, like, I have a idea. Do you want the book? And I can, you know, sell a book on the idea because they know it's gonna, you know, be a decent product. But at the time I was an unknown guy. They had to take a chance on me, you know, and they did. And I'm still working with Tan. Like right now, we're going back and we are we are working on putting together some higher level curriculum materials for Story of Civilization because one thing that happened with Civilization that we weren't anticipating was that we marketed it as a book series for younger children like grade school, but kids in middle school read it, kids in high school read it, parents read it. It's used across all grade levels. And so we are putting together some like s some curriculum materials like essay questions and more higher level thinking, critical reading s exercises, stuff so that you could use this with higher level grades and not just elementary. So as far as I'm concerned, story of civilization is the the gift that that keeps on giving and I'm very I'm very humbled the kids The kids treat me like a celebrity for having written it. Many kids, I'm sorry to burst their bubble. They think I'm the guy on the audio recordings. I'm not. but they they think I am because that was Kevin Gallagher. He did such a fantastic job. so many a lot of my celebrity status is based on the misunderstanding that that's me. but whatever, I'll take it. It's all right. You know, it's all connected. You're all a part of the same project. that's amazing, Phil. Well, first of all, congrats. That's incredible. So what was like what was their what was Tan's vision for it? I mean, was it just yeah, I mean it sounded like it was comprehensive and like what was the timeline and and all that, all those details behind that? Yeah, so Tan had a very comprehensive vision, and from what I understand, this was Connor Gallagher's brainchild. so basically they Tan is really good. One thing that they are really good at is they are good at analyzing the market and recognizing where there's a need that isn't being filled, and then kind of figuring out what they can do to move into that niche. So Connor looked at the at the history resources for younger grades and he said, Look, we've got a lot of middle school stuff. We've got there's high school books like Christ the King, Lord of History, there's all these different resources for upper level, but we don't have anything good for grade school. And in fact what Catholic families were doing a decade ago was they were going to Protestant sources for that stuff. They were going to they were going to Ellen Wise Bowers books, Story of the World, which are kind of a bit more sprawling than civilization and they're written from a Protestant perspective. So the Middle Ages are not treated well. The Reformation is kind of glorified from a Protestant perspective. and you had like a lot of Catholic parents using those books, but having to go through and selectively excise out passages or find supplementary material about the saints and things like that. So Connor came to, you know, when he talked to me, he said, We, you know, we don't have anything in this age range. And what we need for that age range is something that can present the history, but in a narrative. Format, like something that is dramatic, something that is like listening to a story, instead of like blah, blah, blah, facts, facts, dates, dates. So they said, Can you write stories? Can you write historical fiction stories? And I said, I think I can. And so in in Story of Civilization, from the very beginning, the vision was that every chapter would consist of a little bit of factual information at the beginning and end, and then a historical fiction vignette that is sandwiched in between, which was supposed to put the child into the world of the past, to kind of give them a day in the life of sort of view. That was the only thing that took me a little bit of getting used to because I hadn't done much writing like that. So when I said the first draft was 90% on, I was trying to be conservative with my storytelling and Connor was like, no, go harder into it, like like be more theatrical, be more dramatic, you know? And I was like, okay. So I I just cranked it up a little bit. And right from the beginning they had a vision of these four books. You know, we laid it out. we had a a multi-year plan what each book was going to be. Basically, I had nine months to write each volume, and then there was going to be a like a three to five month period of rollout to like get it into print, get the layout done and roll everything out. And I also had to write, by the way, the the the teacher or the student books for it too. So I'd have to write one of the the the books. And then I'd have to write like the lesson plan for that week. It was it was pretty demanding. like I had to be very disciplined in getting it out in time because most of these have thirty-six chapters. I had to, I don't remember what the exact pace was, but if you divide nine months by thirty-six, and then remember that I had to write a lesson plan for each chapter as well, you know, it was very accelerated, but I fell into a groove rather quickly. And Brian Kennell was the editor for all four volumes. He's no longer with Tan. He's gone on to do other things. he is, I think he's a high school teacher in in North Carolina. And he also is a published author who's written a couple of his own historical fiction stories. Fantastic editor to work with. I love Brian. If you're hearing this, Brian, I love you. so it was quite a good experience. But yeah, the whole thing was planned out from the beginning, from the get go. So we had a schedule on when we were gonna roll out each book. we had a schedule on, you know, I had it in my mind what was going on in each book. It was it's kind of funny. It was better thought out and better planned than the new Star Wars sequels were. like it was way better planned than than that. so kudos to Tan and to to to me for for putting it all together that way. It was pretty it was pretty flawless. We didn't have any problems. It was it was very, you know, it just kind of came together. It's like a lightning in a bottle sort of thing. The right idea with the right idea, right marketing, right team of people, it all came together. What would you say too, Phil, would would that be probably why this has taken off so much? Because what Tan envisioned and then putting the stories together, because you're you're absolutely right. Like in most hi I mean I remember in my history class, it was just like, here are the events, here are the important dates. Memorize these and then spew it out. And that I think that's why a lot of kids just find history boring in general. Yeah. You know, but then we have this totally new approach where it's like, no, let's actually tell stories. Because I mean, we already know this is how we learn better anyways, is that when we weave what we need to know into a story. I mean, that's what Jesus did with parables and everything. So I mean, was that do you think that is the main main key? Was this the storytelling that intertwined within actual historical facts? Yeah, but it's So that's part like it's all sorts of different factors. It's like Tan recognized that we needed books at that level. And I think even if we would have written a different product, it still would have sold because there was a need, but it wouldn't have done so well without that specific format of the narrative. And it wasn't even just the narrative, it was like I think it was. Also, my background with kids. because you could have gotten anyone to write the narratives, but I kind of like leaned heavily into my experience of a decade teaching live with kids in the classroom to understand the right balance, like basically how to tell a good story and how to tell a good historical because this this was kind of a method that I was already using in the classroom. This is why Mrs. Whitman recommended me to begin with, was because she was like, Philip knows how to talk to kids and he does this story method. and so I think it w I think a lot of it wasn't just the the method, but like my experience that I brought into the method. Like I think if you would have gotten, say, like a PhD guy and just told him write historical fiction stories, I think it would have come out differently than having someone who talks to kids, you know. and the story of civilization one thing that that really I disliked about Catholic kids literature in the past was that it's very saccharine and very safe and very sugary and very I don't wanna say whitewashed, but it's very like it doesn't want to present the kids with something difficult. And I was not about that. I was like I was like, huh. This is history, people. Like there's it's like a mind numbing series of murders and massacres and bad things that have happened. So true. Yeah, yeah. It's just like this guy killed that guy till the end of time. And so one thing I like about Story of Civilization is that I found the balance, I think, between it's kind of like they say about you know, Aslan. He's not a tame lion, but he's safe. Like these books are safe, you know, but they're not tame. They're not saccharin. There's human sacrifices and there's executions and there's paganism and there's atrocities. and I think it's presented with exactly the right level of gravitas mixed with levity. I was just rereading the other day the chapter I wrote on World War One, which is in volume three, and it depicts these British soldiers going over the top. And it's a pretty awful story. They stand there and they talk about how all the all the people they know had been killed and how scared it's these two privates talking about how scared they are to go over the top and how bad the war is going. And then the guy blows the whistle and they all run over the top and they all get machine gunned in the first ten seconds and die. And that's the story. And so that's history, right? So I had to look at that and I had to say, how can I tell these stories? and make them engaging and memorable, but also kind of show the dark sides of history, but not in a way that's too dark. not in a way that's traumatizing. So I kind of did it by weaving in some humor into it, you know? So when you read volume three, they're sitting there talking in the trench and they're like, So let me get this straight. We just gonna run over the top and charge at the machine gun nest. Doesn't sound like a bright idea to me, and he's like, You don't understand the big picture. And he's like, What's the big picture? Did it work last time? No, it didn't work last time. Did it work the time before that? No, it didn't work that time either. Well, what's different this time? This time it's going to work. And so I just injected a bit of humor into it, and then yeah, at the end they just get machine gunned to death. so I feel like like I said, I leaned into my experience of how you discuss these things with with children and I think that's what gives Story of Civilization its its very unique charm is that it's, yeah, like I said, it's not a tame book, but it is it is good. B bringing Mr. Beaver into a podcast is never a bad moment. Yeah, was that what I was try I was I was trying to think of the exact quote says is he is is he Was he is he a safe line? Like, no, he's a lion. Of course he's not safe. Of course he's good. Yeah, of course he's not safe, but he is good. It's just like history. Of course it's not safe, but it's what happened. And but there's a lot of good as well as the bad, you know, as as it's been through all throughout history. So yes, and being Catholic, we have a we have salvation history. We have like a large meta narrative that we can incorporate everything into that helps us make sense of things. And that's Just as important as telling the actual history. So, anyhow, that's just something that I like about Story of Civilization. I've never believed that history should be sanitized for anybody. Now, obviously, you have to be cognizant of your age group and what you're saying and how you're saying it. and that's one thing. But the facts themselves, you know, I've never believed in I've never I I was writing for another company. I won't say who it is. But I was I was writing some books for or some materials for another company a couple of years ago. And they would go through and kind of like systematically excise references I made to paganism. this was in my ancient I was writing stuff on ancient history. So there's like a thousand b everybody's pagan, you know? Yeah, exactly. So so part of part of that I think is explaining what the pagan belief systems were and trying to understand them. And they would kinda go through and either excise or water down all those references, take them out, or just be like, These people were pagans and that's bad. Let's move on. And I was like, That doesn't do anybody a any service, you know. I'm glad I'm thankful that Tan has always profoundly trusted my judgment as a writer to speak the message the way I want to. So I'm very happy that even though I said these books were Connor's brainchild, they were Tan's idea, they're every bit as much mine, you know, because it is entirely they gave me the vision, but I incarnated the vision. And the the way that this took flesh is entirely from, you know, my vision, so to speak. I love that. Yeah. And yeah, so how for you, Philip? I mean, you okay, so you hear this project. I mean, it's it's quite daunting, obviously. I mean, the story of civilization, I mean, there's just so many different directions. So for you in your mind, like what how do you cipher out, okay, this is the the grand story I wanna tell, kinda like the Bible, you know, this is a story of salvation history. Yeah. But then like what are the main ideas I want to incorporate within the grand story? You know, I mean, 'cause that's quite quite a feat. I'm sure you have to think a lot about. Well, part of it was given to me by Tan when they like Tan was the one that said, Okay, book one, Ancient World, Book Two, Medieval, Book Three, Early Modern, European Focus, Book Four, US history. So they kind of gave me the meta structure and then I just had to populate each volume with the right stories and they gave me leeway. They said, you know, between thirty two to thirty six chapters is fine. and fortunately because I'd been teaching for so long, I already had taught all this subject matter many, many, many times. So I already knew from my own experience what the right beats were and what the major you know major things I needed to focus on were. So a lot of it was just migrating my class notes into kind of like a text format. So that wasn't difficult. I think it might have been if I didn't know the material. You know, if they would have given me something that I didn't know and were like, Hey, write the history of China in thirty six chapters, it would have been a little more daunting, you know. But thankfully this was material I was already very, very comfortable with. Coffee and prayer. It's the perfect blend. Mystic Monk Coffee isn't just another cup of coffee. It's handcrafted by the Carmelite monks of Wyoming, roasted with care and infused with prayer. Whether you're starting your morning or fueling your day, Mystic Monk Coffee has you covered. It offers rich, bold flavors that are as divine as their mission. By choosing Mystic Monk, you're not just enjoying exceptional coffee, but you're supporting a community of monks dedicated to their work, to prayer, and to the church. Is coffee with a cause. So what are you waiting for? Visit Mystic Monk Coffee.com and experience the brew that's fueling faith and flavor. No, that's that's great. Yeah, because there's so there's so much to cover in like the Middle Age the the medieval period, you know, the Middle Ages. You know, and I I grew up Protestant, so I'm convert. And, you know, hearing about, you know, the Crusaders and the Middle Ages, all these dark times. Of course there's dark times too within that. But like the Crusades and everything, but it was always seen as like this horrible thing and you know, Catholics were bad and th it's just like so it's such a Protestant whitewashing, so to speak, you know. Yeah. And that's why I want to ask you, Philip, about the, you know, the the Crusaders and everything, because I'm sure you cover that extensively because, you know, from a Catholic perspective. But like what are I guess some we'll just talk we'll just talk about the Crusades, for instance. What are like some of the main misconceptions that maybe a lot of even Catholics have believed or a lot a lot of our Protestant brothers who are listening are are hearing as well. Do you have Protestants in your audience? We do. Yes. well, hello everyone. I was you know, I was never really a Protestant. I was I was baptized Catholic as a boy. I didn't have a Catholic upbringing though. I I was kind of like raised a religious. Kind of like I was one of those people where the parents baptize the baby and then they never take him to church or anything. So I wasn't raised Catholic, but I had the Catholic baptism. I came to Christ when I was nineteen through Protestantism, it was a Protestant friend of mine from the Assemblies of God who who like brought me to Jesus. and then after I got serious about Jesus, I was bouncing around to all these different churches. I think I went to I went to assemblies of God. I went to Pentecostal charismatic stuff. I went to the Presbyterian church. I went down to the Apostolic Jesus only church in the city. I I I kind of went I went to house churches. I went to Episcopal. I went everywhere. because I was yeah, I was trying to sort out, you know, and that was bef and I think I did that for two years before I became before I came back to being Catholic. So I have a affinity for Protestants because it was kind of like in those early days when I was first getting to know Jesus Christ. It was in a Protestant context before I Found my way back to the church. But the crusades, you know, this goes for anything in history. It's always more complicated than people think it is. It's very, very seldom just a very black and white thing. and the Protestant, it's interesting. I I was gonna say the Protestant view of the Crusades is largely influenced by the secular view, but I think I would say that backwards and say the secular view. is influenced by the Protestant view because before there was ever a secular a secular view, there was an anti Catholic Protestant view on the Crusades. And I think that was adopted by the secular media, which is basically just that the Crusades are like the Catholic version of Islamic Shihad, you know, that, well, Muslims have their Holy War, and the Crusades are like the Catholic version of Holy War. This is people in flagrant, Disobedience to the gospel, taking up arms to spread the faith by means of bloodshed. and for many Protestants, that's the end of the story. It's just a religious war. however, one of the first things you realize when you start studying the history of the Crusades is that the Crusades were not a r religious war. Well, I should say not in the sense that like an Islamic jihad is a religious war. The Crusaders were not going to the Holy Land to make converts. They weren't going to force you know, Muslims to convert at the point of the sword. In fact, they they they did not make any serious efforts to convert the Muslims because if the Muslims became Christians, they wouldn't have they would have been in a lower tax bracket. They wanted to they wanted to keep them keep them Muslims so they could tax. It's always about the money, Philip. It's always about the money. Dude, I tell you what, but But also the Crusades themselves were a defensive war. and I think there's a renewed interest in the historiography of the Crusades today, because today we are dealing with a resurgent and aggressive militant Islamism around the world, which we weren't dealing with, which if you remember before the mid-twentieth century, from like the fifteen hundreds to the mid-twentieth century, that wasn't an issue. The Ottoman Empire went into retreat in the sixteen eighties. seventeen hundreds. just a hundred years ago, G. K. Chesterton, Hiller Belloch, they they said that, you know, in our own day people don't take Muslims seriously as a threat. They're they're kinda like they like a hundred years ago, they were still riding on camels and carrying swords, you know, whereas we were on the cusp of the nuclear age. So the idea that they would ever be a serious threat was not taken very seriously in the twentieth century. But now that they are There's a renewed interest in the historiography of the Crusades because we're kind of seeing why the Crusades happened back in the day. Islam had been expanding for hundreds of years at the expense of Christianity. whole regions that used to be Christian, Christian Egypt, fall into Islam, Christian Syria, Christian Palestine, Christian North Africa, and Christian Spain fall into Muslims in the year seven eleven. Constantinople itself. Besieged by Muslims in the year 717 and barely saved by a miraculous chain of events that included a volcano exploding. but so Islam had been attacking and harassing Christianity for hundreds of years without any major kind of civilizational pushback. And what happened at the time of the Crusades is that for the first time in European history since the fall of Rome. the Christian West was actually powerful enough to strike a counter blow. the the Christians of the West could not effectively fight back for most of the first millennium because of the dissolution of the Roman Empire, the the the Viking raids, the the kind of disorganized state of the West in general. It was only by the 11th century that they were organized and powerful enough. And it actually began as a answer to a plea for help. The the Eastern, the Byzantine Emperor Alexius II sent a message to the Pope and said, Won't you help us? Our lands are being taken. Christian pilgrims are being harassed, kidnapped, sold into slavery. We can't get to the Holy Land anymore. Will you send assistance? And so it was as a gesture of ecumenism to help the beleaguered Christians of the East that Pope Urban II preached the crusade, which at the time wasn't called the Crusade yet, but it was just called the well, crusade means taking up your Cross. But he preached the crusade, and there was such a zeal in the hearts of the Christians of the West, especially France, for the holy places and for the plight of the Christians of the East, that 50,000 of them took up arms and marched to marched all the way to the Holy Land and liberated it from the hands of the Muslims. Remember, the Holy Land was a Christian. For three centuries it was a Christian territory until the Muslims conquered it. And what the Crusaders did was liberate it so that Christians could live and travel there freely. And as I said, they did not make efforts to force Christianity on the Muslim population. They just wanted to it the land to be under Christian under Christian control as it had been for centuries. So and the rest of the Crusades were really just attempts to shore up those initial those initial gains and to defend what the Christians had won at the time of the first crusade. I don't think there's anything that Catholics need to be ashamed about with the Crusades, other than the normal stuff that we have to be deplore about any time in history. Like, yes, they were wars, so there was people that were killed. yes, there were, you know, occasionally there were outbursts of violence that were not justified. I mean, it's the Middle Ages, you know, that that that happened. I don't know if you ever seen the movie There's a great movie, The Lion in the Winter. It's an old movie from the 60s with with Peter O'Toole and Catherine Hepburn. And it takes place in the 12th century. and there's this great scene where it's about the it's about the royal family of England in the 12th century, King Henry II and King John of Robin Hood fame, and Richard the Lionheart. Okay. And the siblings are having an the siblings are having an argument, and King Richard, who's played by Anthony Hopkins, pulls out a knife and And Prince John goes, he has a knife. And Catherine Hepburn, who's Queen Eleanor, she goes, Of course he has a knife. I have a knife. We all have knives. It's the 12th century and we're barbarians. And that's kind of how it is with the Crusades. Like, of course, people got killed. It's a war. It's the Middle Ages. They have swords. Everybody has swords, you know. you know, it's like, is it history or isn't it? Yes, it is. People are gonna look back at the 20th century too and be like, my gosh, y'all really aborted sixty two million babies, you know, like yeah, yeah, yeah. What are you thinking? Yeah, like Yeah, everyone barbarians. Yes. We're all barbarians in our own way, you know, and we look at things happen in the crusades and say, Wow, I wouldn't sack a city and and do all those things. It's like, okay, but we do our own things, you know, we we have our own barbarism, you know. So But anyhow, I don't think there's anything Catholics need to be a ashamed about. And to put this in perspective, the crusading army, the crusading army that took Jerusalem was fifty thousand men. That's the same amount of Islamic migrants that just stormed the Spanish city of Ceyuta last week. A single s a single city. That's right. You know? So you know, these weren't huge armies, we're taught. Fifty thousand is very, very small by modern standards. One percent. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I know that that's funny. You you mentioned that scene in the movie and it reminds me of like those old westerns when like someone pulls out a gun and everyone else pulls out a gun like in the old school, like Texas was. Yes. Yeah. But well hey, I wanna this is a personal question for you, Philip. And 'cause you're a history guy and you teach history. So from your perspective Was there one person that you had are just kind of fascinated by? Maybe it's a leader or kind of an unknown gem that maybe most people haven't heard of? Always 'cause I love history and I'm just curious what what your answer would be to that question. Yeah. You know, I go through phases, honestly. Okay. Where like sometimes I'm focused on a certain era and sometimes I'm focused on another era. I can't say I can't say there's any one individual, but there's various individuals that have captured my attention over time. usually it's the usually it's like the great leaders. but sometimes it'll be like a literary figure or or something like that. I think when I first started studying history, I was really well, actually, you know, yeah, when I was young and even when I was in college, I was very drawn by the character of Charlemagne. I remember when I was a young boy, I had a history book that had the famous high medieval reliquary bust of Charlemagne, which is a very famous piece of art. It's like a golden bust of his head with a beard. And the relics of Charlemagne were hidden inside inside the bust. And I loved the art. I was kind of mystified by the character, how he basically reforged a Western European Empire after the fall of Rome and was given the title of Emperor, like how the Roman imperial title was restored to him by the Pope. like the idea of the rebirth of the Roman ideal under Christian auspices in the Middle Ages was very fascinating to me. so I've always liked Charlemagne. my my senior thesis when I was in college. I I wrote extensively about Charlemagne in the thesis. It was more than about him, but I've always liked him. I've always had a soft spot for him. I love the whole Carolingian era. I love the the the kind of proto-Romanesque architecture of his his period. He was just such an in like modern Europe as we know it, the European map exists because of Charlemagne. So he's an interesting figure. And I like how he combines sincere piety. He's a very pious, genuinely devoted Catholic. But he also has like the same kind of failings that many leaders and men have throughout history. he he he's very generous and forgiving, but when you push him over the edge, he can get pretty brutal. you know, he he he's the the most powerful man in the West, so he always is kind of dealing with the women that are that he's philandering with around his court, you know, and the the church is kind of like bending over backwards to try just like for the love of God, just like, you know, at least just have one wife publicly, you know, and keep it under control, man. Come on. Yeah, we're trying here. And I love the I love the legend of Charlemagne too, that even in like he he's even while he's alive, he's trying to craft a legend for himself. Like he was illiterate, he was unable to write and or could barely write. And he was very self conscious about it. because he valued learning, because he didn't have a lot of formal education, and he was embarrassed that he couldn't write. And so he made up this he made up this story that the reason he couldn't write was because his hand was so gnarled from wielding his sword in battle that his that his fingers couldn't hold a quill. And he made up this kind of like gallant story for I would love to write, but my hand from holding my sword, you know, and And and in in ages past, two hundred years after his death, they were still spinning legends about him and they they said that he was that he was seven or eight feet tall and that he lived to be two hundred years old and he had a white beard down to his waist and he was just this like immortal king. And this is Gandalf, basically. He's he's Gandalf. And then and then what's so epic too is they they buried him sitting in a they they put him in like a chair, like in a in a throne position and buried him sitting up so that Many years later, when the medieval kings of France excavated his tomb, they found this like epic, like kind of corpse sitting upright with the sword in the wall, and then they re-entombed him. And it's a great story. I loved him. But then later, you know, I eventually like started to like lots of other historical characters too. I have many, many, many historical characters I I like and many that I still want to learn about. I particularly like Ramesses the second of Egypt. I like I like him because so little is known about him. Like there's basically a couple things of his reign that we know about, but he had such an influence that he like he has this legend that's absolutely larger than life. and Ramesses himself cultivated that legend deliberately during his life through all the statues he had commissioned and the the paintings and the records. and he had I can't remember how many kids he had. Something like between all his wives, like ninety-two kids or something. And and for like a thousand a th like a thousand years afterwards, the dynasties of Egypt called him the great father because so many people traced themselves back to him. And then there was a reason why he was such a colossal figure, like many people portrayed him as the pharaoh of the Exodus, even though this was never historical. There was no real evidence that Ramesses in particular was the Pharaoh of the Exodus, but he was such a big, imposing, pompous character that it was kind of like assumed that this must be the guy, you know? I yeah, and I've done a lot of study about Ramesses. I even recorded a YouTube documentary about him. So there's lots of fa figures that I that I like. And I'm always I'm always picking up biographies. I'm always reading about people, the good, the bad, the ugly. I like learning about the villains, the heroes. I'm always reading about saints. in terms of my faith, the most important character for me has been Saint Francis of Assisi. He's my patron saint. He is the character that I think led me to Catholicism more than anyone else. I have all the writings of Saint Francis, all the biographies of him. I'm loving that we're in the year of Saint Francis right now, 2026. I'm taking an opportunity to reacquaint myself with Francis of Assisi. he is kind of like my spiritual guide. so I love him very, very much. And my students know that I love him. I had a student that went to Rome, or not Rome, A CZ, and she she bought like a Tau cross, which was Francis' special cross, and touched it to his body, to his relics, and then sent it to me. So it's one of my treasured possessions. So yeah, from a spiritual perspective, Saint Francis is my my guy. Have you been to a CZ, Philip? No, I've never been to A CZ. I was you know what's lame? I went to Italy in two thousand three and I had an itinerary where I was going to go to Venice, Assisi, and Rome. And I was in Venice, and as you know, Venice is like a series of islands, so you gotta take a train out there. And while I was in Venice, they had one of their characteristic Italian train strikes, and me and my family got stranded in Venice for an extra day, and I was no longer able so we had to make a decision do we want to go to Assisi or onto Rome? And of course I went to Rome. instead so I could see St. Pete. And I saw John Paul II while I was there too. So Wow. yeah, it was yeah, yeah. I I was there for one of his Wednesday audiences. so yeah, I had to choose Assisi or Rome, and that was tough, but you know, I picked Rome and so I had to miss Assisi. But, you know, Lord willing, I'll go back someday. Amen. Yeah. Amen. Yeah. Winston Churchill has always been someone I've been fascinated by. And I I read I don't know if you read the what is the book called? The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William Scheyer or Scheer. No, I've not read that. Yeah, it's it's a it's a beast. It's like over a thousand pages. And it but he talks about how when Nazi Germany started taking over and like Poland fought back, but then like France, like they basically overtook all these countries without like any resistance. Yeah. And Churchill was like the one to like stood up to Hitler finally is like, no, like we need like it ends here. And I just love how he like have these like hour long baths and he has like all these notes and he's just like he's smoking and drinking, like he's I mean does all these crazy stuff. But I mean he was a bulldog, you know, of of England. And you know, he he was the one who who finally stood up and is like, no, like we we have to stand up. Like this is not This isn't a good guy and we need to we gotta fight back and he was the only one that did it. So I just love that kind of that feistiness that that sparrow because you need that in great leaders, and I wish we had more of that nowadays. So Yeah. Yeah, Churchill's Churchill's one that I'd like to study and learn more about. Yeah, you know, I read his he wrote a he wrote he was a historian in his own right, and he wrote a history series called The History of the English Speaking Peoples, which I have read. and it's it's a history of England, but also It's a history of all the English speaking people. So he gives the history of America and Australia too. And he wrote so many, like apparently Churchill was a huge civil American Civil War buff. And the most glowing passages the most glowing passages in this book are when he gets to the American Civil War. And you can tell that he absolutely idolizes all these generals from the North and the South. Like when he's writing about Longstreet and Lee and all these people, he's using the most gushing language as a military man himself. he just he just sees he sees the American Civil War as like basically the last he sees it as like the last expression or the last gasp as of like this older, what he considers a more chivalric, you know, form of warfare where men are like where men are charging straight in with their swords drawn and fighting in lines and stuff like that. And he's very deeply moved he's he's deeply moved by I remember he I remember he he has a passage explaining it at Gettysburg, General Armistead dying with his sword in his hand and his arm around a cannon that he had captured from the enemy and like clutching onto this cannon and dying on the cannon, and he was very deeply moved by it. You can tell by the language. So it's a really great kind of like meta history to to read the history of the English peoples written by one of the English people's greatest guys. It's such a such a a brain trip to read it. What what was it called, Philip? It's called Churchill's History of the English Speaking Peoples. And it's multiple volumes, but there is an abridged version that you can buy in one book that is kind of like condensed. I see that. Wow. Yeah, that's four volumes. that is a beast. You can get it. You can get it broken down into one though that is kind of like condensed. Yeah. Okay. Well then, man, that's awesome. Wait, Philip, let's talk about homeschooling now. yeah. So you work for let's We we've been diving all these rabbit holes here, which I love. So you work for Homeschool Connections. you teach so you've been t teaching for what over fifteen years now? Do I have that? Well is it? Now it's been yeah, now it is I'm in my seventeenth year. Seventeen, okay. Yeah, or maybe even eighteen yeah. I'm about to start my eighteenth year, yeah. So for those of us who are not familiar, so forgive me, I have not heard of homeschool connections. Just diving into this year, what is homeschool connections and what got you started with them as well? Yeah. So homeschool connections is an online Catholic curriculum provider that connects homeschooling families with instructors in various subjects. So homeschool connections is not a school, it's not an academy, it's not a program, although it does have programs in it. It is basically a clearinghouse of where all sorts of different homeschooling instructors. gather with their curricula to make them available to homeschooling families. So I have developed my own history curricula over the years, right? That is uniquely mine. And I I teach and host it through Homeschool Connections. And so if people want my curricula, they come to Homeschool Connections and Homeschool Connections provides the online platform for me to make my lessons and my classes available to homeschooling families. and then homeschooling families can access that and so yeah so basically homeschooling families can choose what they want to do with homeschool connections whereas you have a lot of other online academies or online schools that have a program so for example if you sign up with say Colby Academy they're going to say you take our program it's these six classes whatever homeschool connections basically you sign up and they just say, Here's our catalog, take what you need. You know, you can take one class, you can take twenty-seven classes, and you can pick which ones you want. It's all a la carte. We obviously have recommendations. I have like scopes and sequence like I have people who say we want to take all our history through homeschool connections. What do you recommend? And then we have scope and sequence, but they're all just recommendations. People can do what they want. We are there to facilitate the parent and the family. We are not there to replace anybody or to make you take our stuff, you know? So that's why I like homeschool connections. I got started with it. and I should say like most online educational institutions, we have live synchronous classes where you show up at a certain day and time, like an online class. But we also have recorded asynchronous where you just pay an access fee and then you can watch pre-recorded classes at your leisure. And actually most of my students do that. At any given time, like this semester, for example, going into fall, I have about 150 live students, but I have about 1,000 plus recorded students who are not taking it live. So it's it's basically the overarching idea with homeschool connections is flexibility. flexibility of what you take, when you take it, how much of it you take. It basically puts the ball in the parents' court to to craft those things. And then we're on hand to like give guidance if they want help. But but basically we trust the parents to to figure it all out. Now I've I I'm I think I was talking to Maureen about this a while ago. I think I'm the third most senior person at Homeschool Connections. I'm one of the OGs I was in 2009 is when I joined. And at the time, homeschool connections was just starting. in fact, I w what was I doing? I was I was working as a DRE at a parish here in Southeast Michigan in Ann Arbor, as a matter of fact. And Mrs. Whitman just happened to live, you know, nearby, and she came into the parish to ask about getting sacraments for her kids. And so she came to me and We started talking and I told her that I had a background in that I'd been to Ave Maria and that I was training to be a teacher. I wasn't even done with my teacher training yet. I was just kind of there and I was teaching for the local co op. I was teaching I was teaching history for the co op that was at the parish. And she was like, I just started this company called Homeschool Connections. I need somebody to teach history. Are you interested? And I joke about this a lot. It was like the worst pitch ever. She was kind of like. So, first of all, it was 2009. Nobody was doing classes online yet. Right. So she was like, she was like, it's online classes. She's like, I don't have many people. You're probably not going to make very much money. Like, you might make like you're royalty, you might make like $15. I can't promise anything. Sign me up. Let's go. She was like, she was like, but she was like, you'll get to teach what you want. And I can guarantee you that you'll at least have ten students in your class and that you'll get paid for it. And I was like I I was like, dude, I'm down. yeah. And I thought I thought online education sounded weird at the time. Like I was like sure. I was like like I how how old are you? Are you are you in your forties? Okay. So you were you were around at the cusp of the internet age. You probably don't remember much before it, but I'm forty six, so I was I was like sixteen when the internet started. and I remember when the internet started and people started like meeting people off the internet, like be like I met this guy on the internet, I'm gonna go see him and it was like, Ew, like you met a person on the computer. Yeah. He's gonna murder you. Like can't you make friends in real life, you weird loser? and that was kind of how it was in two thousand nine when Maureen said we're doing school on the computer. I was like, I was like that's kind of skeptical. I was like, That's not gonna I was like, that's odd. But she was very insistent that this was not only going to work, but that it was the way of the future. Like she was like, everybody's gonna be doing this in the future. And so I was like, Okay. And you know, I needed I needed the money. I needed the money because I was working for the church. So I needed the money. And and sh you know, she trusted in me and she gave me a chance and I didn't know what I was doing. I just opened the webcam and there was kids there, and I just started talking to them like I talked to my live classes. And you know what? you know, it it it went well and before I no noticed, you know, the the royalties that we got paid for the pre recorded classes, they started going up every month. They went up because kids were hearing about it and families were signing up and they were downloading my videos. And before I knew it it started to be very substantial and then it got you know it got substantial enough that I quit my other job eventually. You know, and I was like, I'm just gonna do this. You know, I had I quit the church, you know, just to just to do this. And I had a summer job. For a long time I had a summer job, but then even I stopped having a summer job once story of civilization came around. So so at a certain point it started like being my career, you know. And then one day I remember Maureen told me, and I didn't realize this, this was maybe about five years into my teaching there. She was like, She was like, you know you're famous, right? And I was like, no. Cause like I just would like open my laptop in my bedroom and sit in my chair and talk to the screen. I had no idea. And she was like, she was like, yeah, like you're you're famous. She was like, everybody in the homeschooling world knows you now because of these classes. And I was like, no way. And then she was right. It like when I started going places, like kids would come up to me like they were starstruck. And families would come to me and they'd be like, they'd be like, You're a celebrity in our household. And like, yeah, everywhere, like just just last month, I went to I went to California to give a talk at a homeschool conference. When I got there, everybody knew who I was. And then I had some students that were in John Paul the Great University in Escondido. I went down to Escondito to meet up with them, and I was walking down the street with one of my former students, and I was telling her, I was like, Yeah, it's crazy. Like everywhere I go in the Catholic world, somebody recognizes me. And right when I was saying that, we were just walking down the street, someone walked up to me and were like, Are you Mr. Campbell? And I just turned to the girl and I was See, this is what talking about. So and it's funny because I didn't really realize because at the time, I just like I said, I didn't have a lot of confidence in online education that it was going to be a thing. But then it started to become a thing. And I was pretty blown away. And realize, like, wow, the reach of this is very, very large. You know, I now I have students, I have students from Ireland, Australia, you know, all over the world. and and then and then COVID happened. And then everybody in the world had to do school online. And homeschooling numbers exploded during COVID. So before COVID, just for reference, before COVID, something like 3% of the population in America, 3% of the children were homeschooled. During COVID, it ballooned up to maybe about 11 or 12%, where almost about one out of every 10 kids was homeschooled. Yeah. That is, and what that means during COVID is remember the public schools were making everybody do remote. So during that time, about one out of every 10 students, their families just said, forget it. We're pulling them out of the public school and we're just gonna homeschool. after COVID The numbers dropped as people went back to school, but they did not drop down to pre-COVID levels. Now it's around six or seven percent. So the number of people homeschooling in the United States, number of children, has doubled since like 2019. And it's still growing. so we were very well positioned. and I was seeing all these teachers all over the place, like kind of like, my gosh, teaching online is so hard. how do I do it? And I'm kind of like, I've been doing this since two thousand nine and I just dude I sailed COVID was OG. Yes. Man, James, COVID was a good year for me. Co I w you know, COVID was a bad year in overall, but for me, it was a good year. It was a very, very good year. You could buy all the Dr. Pepper you wanted that year. Dude, I tell you what. Yeah. It was a good year. Yeah. It was a good year, and there was lots of opportunity. And it was the year that I that I think everybody realized, like, yeah, homeschooling is a viable, in every respect, viable and competitive with public schooling, with traditional schooling, and specifically online schooling. Now, a lot of people have bad experience online during the pandemic, but that's because They were dealing with teachers who had never taught online in their life and were just forced. They were just told by their they James, they did it the worst possible way. They did they they were like, Okay, so in brick and mortar school, we show up at eight AM and you're in class till two thirty. So that means that the students have to log onto their laptop at eight thirty and stay sitting on the screen till two thirty. And that's like the worst possi yeah, it was like they they did the you could tell they had no idea what they were doing. It was really awful. But thankfully, homeschool connection students experienced no disruption whatsoever from the pandemic. And if anything, it reconfirmed my belief that online education can be done very, very well by people who recognize that it's its own unique beast that has its own principles, distinct from brick and mortar education. So, anyhow, that's a long winded answer to your question about what is homeschool connections and how did I get involved with it? But hopefully that helps. No, that was that was brilliant. Yeah, 'cause I ha like I said, I had never heard of it and then I know I saw you had been teaching there for since basically the inception of it in two thousand that was two thousand nine you said. Yeah, two. So that's going on. Yeah, seventeen years now. So Yeah, yeah. And I think it was founded in two thousand nine. So I think I found I started the year it was founded. Wow. Yeah. All right. And you do you and your wife home school, so you're teaching your kids too? Or is that On and off. yeah. So some sometimes yes, sometimes no. Yeah. Now with with you guys for for homeschooling, like what or I guess when you go into when you when you go into teaching too, when teaching your online class too, what I guess how does it differ from did you teach in like regular school as well, or has it just been 'cause you're in the church I know and you're you're training to be a teacher. Yeah. But then were do you actually teach in like regular brick and mortar school? No. well I I was well, I was going to college for it. I'm certified for it. I I did five years of an education program. I did all the classes. I did all the student teaching. I student taught in brick and mortar schools. But then when I graduated, it was in the middle of the the stupid Obama era recession, the Great Recession. there was no teaching jobs because everybody that lost their jobs in every other sector flooded into teaching. because teaching is teaching in the public schools is believed to be a safe career because there's always demand and you're like you're locked in with contracts and whatnot. So everybody that lost their manufacturing jobs, everybody that lost like They all went into teaching. So I graduated and I remember I I applied for a job in my hometown and there was like two hundred and twenty applicants for it. my gosh. Yeah. And it was like there was just no way. There was just no way. So I was pretty disillusioned at my prospects and I was starting to look for alternative, alternative education. So I was thinking about things like private schools and private schools and you know, like co-ops and stuff like that. so it was kind of a godsend homeschool connections came along. and I was like teaching at the church level that like I said, there was a co-op in the church. so I was just teaching in the co-op. Which was like basically some homeschooling families. And that was they were paying me very well. But yeah, I never I actually never have formally taught in a public school because after I made my career in homeschool connections, I didn't need to anymore. And now now I'm way better off than if I would have been in the public school, honestly. Like in terms of the way the wages and stuff and the amount of like bureaucratic nonsense that the public school teachers have to worry about. gosh. By the time, by the way, by the time I got out of my college of education program, I didn't even want to anymore. Like, like I went through five years and I was like, this is pretty awful. Now, no shade, no shade to my alma mater. I went to Madonna University and Madonna trained me very well to be a teacher. I have no complaints about them. But just as I was exposed to the realities of what the system looked like, I was like, this is awful. Like, I don't want to teach here. You know? So It w it was kind of a God thing. I I got all the training that I needed. but I didn't have to actually deal with the beast. the bureaucracy. Yeah. I I have a friend who a really good friend I grew up with and yeah, he went to a private yeah, he he's actually a history teacher as well, and he did private school and then he got into he's out in California and went into now he's transitioned to public school too. But like some of the stuff he talks about, like the stuff they have to deal with and like the classes, I'm like, my gosh, it's so Just sounds like a nightmare. But yeah. But now yeah. Now you got to you kinda got the best. Yeah, you got trained by a great great college, but then you got to do it, move into a totally different type of teaching, which has done it. And you know, all these things, you know, the the Lord uses everything that happens. it all kind of comes together, like because what I do for homeschool connections and tan through story of civilization, so much of it is curriculum design. which is something that I was trained in at Madonna University. because to to teach a class is one thing, but to to lay out and plan a whole curriculum is something different, you know. And with Story of Civilization, you know, I was tasked with not only writing books, but planning out a curriculum. Like this is an integrated thing where there's audio dramas and there's workbooks and there's a scope and a sequence they're supposed to go through, and it's a big thing. And that's kind of what I do with homeschool connections too. I'm not just like showing up, clocking in, lecturing on US history, clocking out, you know, it's like I gotta plan out I gotta plan out the whole sequence. This class, then I'm gonna lead into this class. I'm gonna give them these readings. It's gonna be this. These are the activities, this is the age group, this is the pedagogy. so I've kind of developed a whole educational philosophy out of all of this. And so I've used a lot of the stuff that I got from my you know, from my college days. I wish I wasn't still paying for it, but you know, buy some more story of civilization books. Story for a different show. Yeah, yeah, college. Yeah, I hear you. Yeah, yeah. Can you guys out there just sign up for some more classes and buy some more books? Everybody buy all the tan copies they have. Let's help Phillip out. We'll start a GoFundMe for Philip here. And maybe maybe by the time I retire, I'll be paid off. Paid off all those. I'll be paid. I'll be paid off paid off for the college program that I never actually taught in the public schools. Absolutely. Well, so so what are you working on now? I I think you mentioned earlier you guys are are what'd you say? You're kind of tinkering with a little bit of some of the stories, but yeah. So like so I've got a little draft of it here. so for Story of Civilization, we were just pleasantly surprised to find out that. People were using it more broadly than we had anticipated. And Story of Civilization is increasingly getting used at the diocesan level. so in the beginning, it was written for homeschool families, but it's increasingly being finding its way into the Catholic schools. So, for example, the Archdio the Archdiocese of Denver switched over to this a few years ago. the diocese of Lansing, Michigan is switching over this year. But what a lot of these dioceses wanted was more higher level like more higher level work. So I'm going through and I'm this is kind of just a draft, but like I'm going through and I'm writing like higher level questions. So this says like here's all the key people, the essential questions, the key terms. and then I have because a lot of people these days, a lot of kids are having trouble with their reading. A lot of these questions are focused on reading comprehension and critical thinking skills. So these are not just like these are not just like I mean, there is some true and false and there is some multiple choice, but a lot of it is critical thinking, reading comprehension, analytical stuff, writing prompts, stuff that will get the kids to not just like regurgitate the correct answer, but to to think critically and analytically about About the text, right? So for example, in this lesson on this lesson on Cortez, I don't know if you know the story of Cortez and the conquest of Mexico. yeah. It's it's one of the greatest stories in history, honestly. But so an example of a critical thinking question, it says Cortez burned his ships before marching inland. Was this a wise decision or a reckless decision? And what does it tell you about his personality as a leader? So it makes them think. Very critically about the story and then ruminate on it and you know give their answer. Or it says, the chapter describes Aztec civilization as having both remarkable achievements and terrible cruelties. How should we think about a civilization that is advanced in some ways but deeply unjust in others? Does great architecture or engineering make human sacrifice acceptable? So it's asking them to kind of take the information they're getting and kind of weigh things against the other and then think critically about it and then give an informed opinion. Well, I love that too, Phil, because it's, I mean, that's how we weigh people anyways, right? It's like there's gonna be good and there's bad with everything. It's like, okay, so these are what these people did. Yes, they accomplished great things, but was there something else that they fell short on, like were they morally corrupt or were they involved in scandal and things like that. But y like you can still create you can still make great things, but also have a bad side as well. And so I mean, 'cause that's every human condition, I think too often in our history, we either whitewash it and say like, nothing they never did anything bad, or we go the opposite way and we say, they never did anything good. They're all bad. They're evil and and vice versa. So I I love how it's it's thinking critically about it because yes, they they did create these amazing advances, but then they also still participate in human sacrifice, which was obviously terrible. So how do you weigh that? Yeah, yeah. And we want to try to get behind just narratives of good guy, bad guy, and try to understand the actual the actual history, right? Like I said at the beginning, history is always, always more complicated. than than kind of like the narratives that we are sold. So that's that that's something else that Story of Civilization does very well is just to get behind like you if I don't know how far you're into Story of Civilization or if you've even five chapters. Five chapters. Five chapters that's just me reading that. That's just me reading it right now. We haven't even gotten to the kids yet, Philip. Yeah. It's more for me than anyone else. Right, right, right. So Yeah, like if you if you get further into it, you'll see that there's a lot of like, well, some people say this and some people say that, you know, there's a lot of like, on the one hand, you know, this, on the other hand, that. I I try to avoid just giving a single interpretation of things because history is so often, you know, there's there's multiple perspectives. Absolutely. And I try to avoid just kind of like I try to avoid like I mean kids aren't dumb. They can tell when you're trying to just sell them on something, when you're trying to just, you know, be like blah blah blah. Here's my opinion. Here I'm propagandizing you. Like they can tell when you're doing that, even at a young age, as opposed to trying to actually teach them something, you know. Absolutely. Absolutely. Well, Philip, I've stolen over an hour of your time here. Is there before we wrap up Can you let our audience know where they can find more about your work, whether it's Story of Civilization or you in general? And and then we'll let you go. Yeah, sure. So I I have a website called Philipcampbell.net, and that is fill up with two L's and it's dot net, not dot com. If you go to dot com, you're going to get the bass player for Motorhead, whose name is Philip Campbell. So you want to get Philipcampbell.net. and that is my own personal website. and then but I I don't update that all the time. So if you want to stay more in touch with what I'm doing day to day, I have a Facebook page called Philip Campbell Author Teacher, where I kind of update about my classes, post articles I'm writing, and sometimes I post promotions where I give away free signed things or promo codes to get things at a discount. I also have a YouTube channel called Mr. Campbell Explains. That is kind of a wild channel. Sometimes I post history stuff. A lot of stuff is student created content. So students will students will post compilations of like their favorite class moments and then I post them or Sometimes students will send me things in the mail and ask me to unbox them on the YouTube channel. So the YouTube channel, Mr. Campbell Explains, you never know what you're gonna get there. but anyhow, that's that's just the best ways to keep abreast of what's going on. Well, I am going to link all of these, especially this wild YouTube channel. But yeah, looking up right now. Philip was it Philip Campbell Explains? It's Mr. Campbell Explains. Mr. Campbell Explains, okay. Yeah, that's the YouTube channel. All right, I will Put a link in the show notes so everyone can stay in touch with everything Phillip is releasing articles, videos, and everything. And if you are thinking about homeschooling, check out homeschoolconnections.com and tan books as well. Look out and check out the story of civilization to help Phillip pay off his student loans. Well, Philip, thank you so much for your time and all the work that you're doing. I really do appreciate it. And until next time, everyone, go out there and be a saint. Brothers, thank you so much for listening to this episode. If the shows add value to your life, I'm going to ask you to do three things. Share with a brother who needs it, leave us a review, and finally support the show so we can keep fighting. Links are in the show notes. We'll see you next week.