Ep 86 - Why Divorce is Always Wrong with Dr. Ray Guarendi

Speaker 1: 0:20

Let me ask you all something. I'm guessing you all like to laugh, right? You all like to have a good time. Some of you out there want your marriages to have a good time. Maybe you haven't laughed in a while. Maybe you're struggling to find the joy, the fire that you felt when you first got married. Well, ladies and gentlemen, the man who you will hear today on the Manly Catholic does not really need a whole lot of introduction. Dr Ray has his own show, an EWTN radio show. It's written I believe it's 16 books now. But anyways, in this fantastic interview probably one of the funniest ones you will hear on the Manly Catholic, we're talking about marriage. We're talking about his new book, the 12 Simple Steps. In this episode we are talking all things marriage, simple steps for a stronger marriage. For those of you who are married, obviously this book is for you. For those of you who are single, this book is also for you, so you can learn all the things and start preparing yourself. Maybe you recognize some things that we'll talk about like oh, I do struggle with that that you can start working on now. Whether you're engaged, whether you're still single and looking for your spouse, these are all applicable to all stages of life. We're talking about never using the D word, making sure you say sorry, and the importance of silence, and so much more. So stay tuned for a entertaining but also serious conversation with Dr Ray. Now, before we jump into the conversation, I want to send a special shout out to Exodus 90. Right now we are in the middle of what is called St Michael's Lent, which I have never heard about until this year, and Exodus 90 said hey, we're doing St Michael's Lent 40 days up until the feast day of St Michael the Archangel. It's a fantastic program. It's not as intense as the whole Exodus 90 program. For those of you who have done it in the past, it is not too late to get started. In the middle of it, every week they're releasing a live talk exclusively on the Exodus app. You can get started with a free trial with them, by the way, so you don't miss any of them and you can catch up too. But there are often a series of live talks on the nature of spiritual warfare and how men can lean into their authority over the devil as baptized sons of God. You can hear from men who have had a ton of experience dealing with exorcisms. If I can speak clearly, including Father Carlos Martins and his co-hosts on the hit podcast, the Exorcist Files, which is just a fantastic program for those of you who have not checked it out, but anyways. So Father Carlos Martins is on it, his co-hosts Ryan totally blanking on his last name, sorry about that, ryan but they talk about their daily battles against demons. They do mention some of the stories on the podcast as well, but most importantly, how you, as a man of God, can directly defeat Satan with the help of the Father, saint Michael, the Archangel and your guardian angel as well. So again, these talks are exclusively available on the Exodus app, which you can download for free. Get a seven day free trial, get caught up on all the talks, and that's what I have for you. Also, please, please, continue to pray for us, for Father Dom especially and his vocation as a priest, for me as a father of four young children still not getting great sleep, but that is okay. Please, if you have the wherewithal, if you so desire, if you prayerfully can, please consider supporting the podcast. You can go to Patreon. You can go to our website, the Manly Catholic dot com. We greatly appreciate any support you can give. If you go to Patreon. We have some perks we can give out, including behind the scenes content, exclusive episodes that we give out, and we're even looking into some merchandise in the future. So stay tuned for that. But that's all of me Jibber Jabbering. Here is the interview with Dr Ray on simple steps to better marriage. Enjoy, hello, all welcome to another episode of the Manly Catholic. I am James, your host, and with me very special guest, dr Ray. Dr Ray, welcome to the Manly Catholic.

Speaker 2: 5:05

Hey, james, good to be here with you. We finally pulled this off, we did it.

Speaker 1: 5:09

We did it. We are functioning at about 36% battery, both in our brain power and an iPhone power, but we'll see what we can do.

Speaker 2: 5:18

We connect this voice up to a generator, we could toast a slice of bread.

Speaker 1: 5:22

Let's do it, let's make this happen. So, for those of you who I'm sure you have heard of Dr Ray, he is very well known in the Catholic sphere, but we will dive deeper into his bio and a new book that we will be talking about tonight, which is Simple Steps to a Stronger Marriage. Before we get into that, we'll start with Hail Mary, so starting with the Father, son and Holy Spirit Amen, hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blesses the fruit of thy womb, jesus. Holy Mary, mother pray for us now, at the hour of death. Amen, father, son and Holy Spirit. Amen. Well, dr Ray, for those of our listeners who do not know, I've never heard of you. I've heard of you.

Speaker 2: 6:14

How have they managed to live their lives this long?

Speaker 1: 6:16

That's you know. I don't know, they must have just been born yesterday and they're already listened to the podcast, so they're already off to a good start. But leading into your bio, I want you to answer the question if you could be the patron saint of anything, what would it be and why?

Speaker 2: 6:33

I would be the patron saint of truth seekers. Oh, I like that. Anybody with an open mind who seeks truth will find God.

Speaker 1: 6:51

Beautiful. I love that, especially now, this day and age where we can make up our own truth. That is needed. So I love that. So dive a little bit into your bio, dr Ray. I mean I've heard I may. I converted to Catholic faith about five years ago now, but I heard a lot of your, obviously on the radio, and the books you've written and talks you've given. So give our listeners just in a one to two minute synopsis with all you've done. Who is Dr Ray?

Speaker 2: 7:22

Okay, I don't know how far back you want me to go, james, but in the second grade I was fractions champ of my row. Too much detail, is this too much? No, this is good.

Speaker 1: 7:36

This is good, keep going.

Speaker 2: 7:41

I stumbled into psychology. I started out in engineering. I just thought you know if you really need to live in a caboose? I didn't know what engineering was, so I got out of engineering after I blew a physics test, got into pre-law and I thought, well, you're going to be a good lawyer, you might want to know some psychology. So I got into psychology and then I thought, well, this is pretty cool, let me see what happens if I keep going. And I just kept going. And when I got out of school I did nothing but see clients. So I worked in mental health centers and you just saw 40, 50 hours a week of clients. That's what you did. And I thought I don't know how long I can keep doing this. So I branched out into other things. I used to entertain in nightclubs. So that was a perfect venue for me to jump into public speaking, which I did. Public speaking pays very well and with the public speaking came a lot of media appearances Oprah, jenny Jones, I don't know how to stop it, you know, but anyway. So I just got into that and little by little I kind of just branched into where I am and it's sort of unusual because of somebody. For years, james, I wanted to have my own television show. That was like my apex of careers, and the producers of some of these shows like Oprah and that, they said, oh Ray, you should have your own show. It never happened. And the years went by and I gave it up. I thought, eh, okay, isn't going to happen. The Lord gave me a chance to have a TV show on EWTN and I can talk about God, I can talk about truth, I can talk about the things that matter the most in life, and if I would have gotten one of those secular shows, I think I would have blown out the first six months because I couldn't have done the compromises.

Speaker 1: 11:25

It's amazing, isn't it funny, that the timing that God has and he always. I was interviewing a priest a couple of weeks ago and he said you know, god seems to laugh at the plans that we make as men, because his timing is always perfect and we always want at our timeline, but God's like no, just wait, I have something better for you. And he always comes every single time.

Speaker 2: 11:48

I left the church. I left the church for 10 years and I was probably at my low point of Christianity because I was so confused I didn't know what Christianity was. Depending upon who you listen to, where you sat, what church you went to, you could hear radically different things Abortion's okay, abortion's not okay. One saved, always saved, not one saved, always saved. So I realized I begged God. I kept saying you said that you would give faith if people asked for it and I begged. And long about the fourth year out of the church, I was wanting so desperately to find truth. And this is going to come as a surprise to you, james. But God is smarter than we are. I know it. This is a shocker. And he knew. He knew what I would do. He knew that I would read, get all kinds of tapes, listen to hundreds and hundreds of people much smarter than I with all my questions about God, about the universe, about Jesus, about Catholic Church, about Protestant Church, about Jesus, everything. And during that time he shaped me so that I could handle my own TV show and my own radio show, because otherwise, james, what would have happened? Somebody would have called me and said, well, okay, here's what I don't understand, like, why do you guys say Hail Mary's? And then I would say, oh, because my grandmother did and my grandmother taught me and she was really a nice lady. That had been about the depth of my answer, but I think that God was just kind of slapping me all over the place and I'm so grateful to be back and be able to do programs like yours.

Speaker 1: 13:43

Oh, that's amazing. Yeah, you don't think the answer would have flown, because my grandma did it.

Speaker 2: 13:49

It might have flown with people who are grandmas, that's true grandma and grandpa's. You know that is true, but we need a little more in depth and by the way, just a little bit in the side, james, yes, I'm feeling a little older these days, and it's not because I have grandchildren, it's because I'm married to a grandma. That's really what's doing it.

Speaker 1: 14:13

Hey, you know your wife was the one fixing the audio and video here, so you know grandma has some brains. So well, speaking of your wife, let's talk about this new book, simple Steps to a Stronger Marriage, and I must admit I'm currently I'm about 80% through it, according to my Kindle app. So I'm almost there. And you know it's funny that, as humans, we love to make things complex, and you mentioned that even in your book. You know, Simple Steps to a Stronger Marriage. When someone reads that, they may think well, you know, isn't this a complex issue? Isn't marriage supposed to be complex with all these complicated, you know, issues? Shouldn't we have a complicated solution to fix our marriage or make our marriage better and things like that? But you kind of go the opposite way. You say, no, let's simplify it. So tell us why you thought this was necessary and why this message in this book is so pertinent and important in our day and age right now.

Speaker 2: 15:13

You are a physical therapist, James, correct?

Speaker 1: 15:17

I am sir.

Speaker 2: 15:17

When you give somebody an exercise for them to do, they won't do it Unless it's very, very simple. Right, it's got to be so simple and it's got to be something they can repeat. And you know you've got to get into it more than four times over the course of a month. So in the book I thought, if I find these steps that are very simple now they're not easy, they're simple and they can have a dramatic escalating effect. I called it the cascade effect. I'll give you a small example. A parent will walk into my office totally frustrated, upset, angry, feeling a failure. As a parent, I'll say why is this? My five year olds drive me crazy. I thought I'd be a wonderful mother. I used to go to confession, I was holy, I was nice, and now I'm not nice or holy, so I feel terrible. I said let's do this and I give them one or two very simple discipline techniques, very simple. Two weeks later, about half of them come back and say things like this I can't believe this. It's like I'm living with a different child. You know, she came up to me and hugged me yesterday three times. She hasn't hugged me in four weeks. She told me I love you, mommy. I can't believe she's happier. I said that's a cascade effect. You did a couple simple things and it reverberated throughout the whole relationship. And that's what happens with these steps. But you know, when you read 80% of the books, so your IQ is probably about 120, 125, but you read the rest, it'll be 130. So, given that, what struck you as different? Okay, I made the suggestions about the simple steps. We'll get to those in a second if you wish. But then what did I do after that? That makes, I think, a big difference in these kinds of books where they say, okay, 10 happy, healthy steps to a more fulfilling relationship, five techniques for you to become a wonderful person. What did I do after I suggested the steps in the rest of the chapter?

Speaker 1: 17:33

Well, you gave examples, which I loved, personal examples. So stories I mean, I feel like for me, when you put it in a story format it kind of resonates with me better. But then you give the what was it called Resistance rationales. Thank you, there you go. I was gonna say the objections, but I like yours better resistance rationales. That's the one I was looking for.

Speaker 2: 17:55

People will ask me what is the hardest part of being a therapist and you said this for your own profession. You know what to do. You can pretty much give people suggestions that will make them a little more pain-free, maybe a little sturdier. You can give them ideas that will make them function better, but the problem is you can't convince them to do it, and that's the key in therapy. I've got the ideas. The hard part is convincing someone to do it, and that's what I did in the book. I knew when I made these suggestions, people were ready to go okay, but wait. Okay, here's why I don't do it. Okay, this is what would happen if I didn't. This is why they do it and I don't do it. They have all their objections lined up. I'll give you a small example. The early first step was say I'm sorry. The standard objections to that are things like it'll be thrown back in my face. I'm always the one who says I'm sorry. Well, I may not say it, but I act it. I get nicer. So what they do is they throw these objections out to justifications on why they won't do this, and I try to take each of those apart and say here's why your objection is not going to work and it's going to sabotage you. So that's kind of the structure of the book Simple suggestions, and then I attack the objections.

Speaker 1: 20:42

No, and I found it very helpful, especially the one on I'm sorry, and I didn't want to kind of lead that into because that was going to be my next question is you know the I'm sorry? It's such a simple thing. We always teach our children no, say I'm sorry, say I'm sorry. Why is it? Well, I guess there are two questions for you why is it so hard for adults to say sorry? And two, why is it so important for adults to say sorry? Because it's not just a kid thing, it's an adult thing too.

Speaker 2: 21:12

When an adult doesn't say sorry or they're very slow in saying sorry, the question becomes what does it mean to them? In other words, if I do something that hurts my wife's feelings and I am thinking about saying I'm sorry, but I don't Because why? Well, does that mean I'm a failure? Does that mean I'm not a nice person? Does that mean I'll show her she's always right and I'm always wrong? You see, what happens, james is I'm sorry is filled with too much meaning. If, when you say I'm sorry, you're basically saying for what I did at that particular time, I am sorry, you're not saying anything else. You're not saying about your personality, you're not saying anything about your character. You're not saying anything. But most people and this is one of the points I make in the book when spouses get frustrated because their spouse doesn't say sorry, they say something like this Well, you know, he thinks he's so superior he never has to say I'm sorry, he always thinks he's right. So he doesn't have to say I'm sorry. And I say to them it's the exact opposite. When you don't say I'm sorry, you're insecure, you doubt yourself, you're not confident, you can't say it. What does that say about your level of self confidence. I have spouses. When you got a spouse that doesn't apologize, they're not superior, they're worried about being inferior.

Speaker 1: 22:54

That's huge, yeah, I mean so. I mean you can translate that even just to sin in general, you know, and so much shame to that comes with that. And what I like about what you do in the book to Dr Ray is, like I mentioned, is you weave in examples that you've maybe brought up and or heard of in your counseling and things like that.

Speaker 2: 23:15

You know what I mean.

Speaker 1: 23:17

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2: 23:17

We have very close to divorce. But I told her okay, I'll expand some of those parts.

Speaker 1: 23:23

But it's for a book, so it's worth it, okay, so now we'll kind of go the opposite way, right? So okay, now we're talking about saying sorry, but then you also talk about silence, and I really, I really enjoy that topic because I think silence is an absent part of our society that we need to kind of reclaim, because we're all going crazy and we're constantly bombarded. Obviously, it's great we're doing interviews like this via technology, but we have so much technology. So talk about the importance of silence when it comes to marriage and I know you talk about too deeper into, you know like an argument for an argument's sake but talk about silence a little bit and why that's so important.

Speaker 2: 24:05

There were two simple steps that tapped into silence. One of them is don't say it. The majority of hurtful, offensive, nasty things that people say are said in the moment of peak emotion, when my feelings are fiery, as all get out the stuff that comes out of my mouth. Later I could regret, but because I had this impulse, this urge to shoot off what my feelings were telling me to shoot off, I created damage, created a lot of damage. So the step says now you know this because you're an expert in physiology the step basically says your body's on your side. If you cannot say something for, say, 20 or 30 seconds when you're at peak emotion, you can't stay at peak emotion that long. It starts to taper, it does come down. It may feel like it doesn't, but it does. And as it comes down it allows you more self-control. I may not have been able to control myself in that first three seconds. I was going to say what I was going to say and that's it. And I don't care who it blasts, but if I just just don't say it, that's the step. 20 seconds, 30 seconds, maybe 40, if you can do it, you will have half of what you need to apologize for. The phrase is you never have to apologize for what you didn't say. That's so true and that's big. Just don't say it Now. The other one is listen a minute. A spouse will come into my office and she'll say he doesn't back me up when his mother criticizes me. He doesn't do this, he keeps his mouth shut. I'll turn to the guy. Do you know why she thinks this Not really? How long you've been married 24 years you don't know why she thinks this Not really. Have you asked her? So the bottom line is, if you listen a minute without jumping in and defending yourself, without saying you do too, without saying what are you talking about? If you just listen, you can hear what they're thinking. I always tell people this as a therapist I hear a lot of rotgut stuff. I mean, I hear some nasty rotgut stuff. If I were to immediately say what the hell is wrong with you, why are you talking like that? What a jerk. I don't think that session would last much more than about four minutes. I have to sit there and listen. I gotta figure out what's gone on in their head. I don't agree with it, but I gotta understand it. That's why I say to spouses you don't have to agree with it, but you better be able to understand it, because most people would prefer to be understood even more than agreed with.

Speaker 1: 27:23

Yeah, I mean one objection I have because this happens with my wife and me.

Speaker 2: 27:28

Is that?

Speaker 1: 27:30

right? No, she is not. Well, maybe she is I don't know, we'll find out. I know we're done. We're both in the doghouse tonight when our emotions are getting boiled, I naturally my actual reaction is to recoil and I won't say anything. That makes my wife mad. She's like why aren't you saying anything, wait?

Speaker 2: 27:51

a minute. Am I punishing?

Speaker 1: 27:52

her. No, because I know if I say something it won't be very nice.

Speaker 2: 28:00

Why don't you say something like that? Why don't you say, honey, I don't trust what would come out of my mouth right now.

Speaker 1: 28:07

Dr Ray, when I'm in the moment, I don't think of that very profound sentence. Maybe I should write it down because, yeah, I guess my reaction is I don't want to say anything. I'd rather wait, let it cool off and then come back to it, maybe like three four minutes later. Let me give you a safer thing to say Okay, okay, yeah, talk to me, I like this. We're doing live therapy.

Speaker 2: 28:31

Let's go, if you say I don't trust what I'm going to say now, or if you say I don't like what might come out of my mouth, your wife could easily say oh, oh, I just wonder what is percolating in there. Then what kind of ugliness are you holding back? Say this instead. Say honey, I'm trying to listen and understand what you're saying. I got to hear more. Once I do that, I will say something, but I want to make sure I don't just jump in without really understanding what you're trying to tell me. There you go. All right, that's like eight bucks, that's eight bucks.

Speaker 1: 29:14

Yes, all right, perfect Thanks, dr Wright.

Speaker 2: 29:16

Appreciate it, and then you pull a stunt like that with your wife and she's going to go. What book have you been reading?

Speaker 1: 29:24

I just talked to people and I get free advice. That's great, I love it. Okay, you talked about being silent and then you talked about okay. So say you're silent for the 20, 30 seconds. You've calmed down a little bit, but you're still just like man. I disagree with everything he or she is saying. So how do you can you respond gently, politely, but still absorbing the constructive criticism? We'll call it?

Speaker 2: 29:52

One of the steps is ask a question. My son came to me one time when he was 17 years old and he said hey dad, if I meet a girl and I want to make a good impression, what do I do? I said well, johnny, that's easy. I said ask her about herself, ask her all about herself. I'll talk about you, talk about her. And so when those emotions are there and they're percolating and you just feel the impulse to defend every step of the way, ask a few questions. When do I do that Well? Why do you think I do that? When was the last time I did it Well? Would you tell me? The next time I do it In?

Speaker 1: 30:44

other words, you're saying OK rather than me defending myself.

Speaker 2: 30:49

I'm going to find this out here Now. You know what people say about this, james. This is the standard big objection At the end of the book. You haven't gotten there yet, but I call it the ultimate resistance rationale, and it's I don't want to. So people will say if my marriage is friction-filled, I don't want to do this stuff, because all that will do is make it seem like I'm the one who's always trying, I'm the one who's the religious one. But I tell them if you want a better marriage, if you want to be treated better, then you have got to do a few things. You can't take the other person by the throat and say be nicer, be better, say you're sorry more, listen to me more, be more thoughtful, what's wrong with you. You can't do that. You have to change yourself first, and unless you live with Satan or his sister, people respond. They do. Most people will respond at least a little to a person who says OK, I'm going to try these little things and see what happens.

Speaker 1: 32:02

I really. I mean, we just keep coming back to the simple steps, and I love that. And one that I did want to touch base on was that don't I forgot the name of the chapter? It was that don't say the D word or don't mention the D word, don't say the D word. And dump the D word, thank you. So the D word is divorce, and that's one thing that my wife and I, when we did the Engaged Encounter weekend, is that we promised each other we would never bring up divorce Like that would just never be an option. And so explain, for those of you who are listening, why is it so important to dump the D word and I guess the amount of freedom, in a sense, that you have when that's not even on the table, so to speak, it's the big club.

Speaker 2: 32:50

Everything I think I've tried so far hasn't worked, so it's time to pull out the club. Well, you know, maybe we just weren't meant to be together. I think that we ought to think about going our separate ways. If things don't change around here, maybe we ought to have some pretty dramatic changes. So what happens is you either imply it or you say it. You know, I'm thinking divorce, because that's the shocker, that's the one that says you better straighten up, because, buddy or woman, I'm on the edge here. Now, part of the problem is people say, well, I say it, but I don't mean it. Well, then don't say it, because once you say it, once it's out loud, the thought now creeps in. It's an option. People come into my office a lot of times, james, and they come in for various reasons. I do a lot of marriage therapy. That's why I have this major tick. So they'll come in and one of the spouses really doesn't want to be there. They're there because they want to be able to say well, we tried therapy, it didn't work. They're their head first in believing this marriage. One of the first questions I ask them is divorce an option? If they say no, then I say good, because now I can ask you to do a lot of things and you won't have to say if they get too tough or if they don't work or if the other person reacts badly. I've always got the door. So that's huge. The divorce option off the table makes you more motivated to try anything. But if that divorce option is there, it's like I don't know how hard I'll try. There's an interesting study I appreciate this A book called the Case for Marriage by Maggie Gallagher. They followed up, I think, several thousand couples of those who were on the edge of divorce but didn't. Five years later about half of them said their marriage was better. Of those who were on the edge of divorce and then left, they followed them up five years later and asked them are you happier now than you were in your marriage? 80% of them said no Because of the complications. They got kids who don't want to come and see them now. They got a new girlfriend, boyfriend who has a kid, who's a brat. They now have lost friendships. I mean, the complications are enormous, but they don't realize it. They just think I'm going to get out of this marriage, I'll be happy. I'll get rid of this frustration over here, I'll drop this anchor off and I'll be OK. And they don't realize all the things that are in the future that they don't anticipate. That's why you don't believe it.

Speaker 1: 35:56

Yeah, I mean it just speaks volumes of us as humans. We want the quick fix or we think the state that we are in right now, as tough as it might be, is that it's never going to get better. But I mean that study that you just mentioned just five years, I mean that's really nothing for most people in the general lifetime if you live 9,500 years. So just sticking it out and recognizing, especially as Catholics, the value made, the promise that you made before God, of what it actually means to be married, and recognizing that you really have no other option, Do you know what the divorce rate was, James, in 1960? I must say 15%, 110.

Speaker 2: 36:39

Now was human nature different then.

Speaker 1: 36:43

No, exactly.

Speaker 2: 36:44

What was it that made those folks persevere? And they didn't dance on their spouse's grave when they died, they were truly sad, even though they might have had what would, nowadays, have easily led to divorce, but they didn't. And so you're right, the D word is a nuclear warhead, and that's what I'm going to throw at you when I think that nothing I'm doing is going to make you change. Now you're on the edge, buddy boy. By the way, 80% of all divorces are initiated by women.

Speaker 1: 37:26

Oh, I did not know that yeah.

Speaker 2: 37:28

And here's the other thing Most divorces are not because of pathology, no, not because of abuse or alcoholism or pornography or adulterous relationship. They are because I just really don't like you anymore. That's the main reason, and those are the ones that can be fixed.

Speaker 1: 37:51

Right Right. Why 80% are women? Do you know?

Speaker 2: 37:56

I can speculate. In most of human history and even in many cultures today, men and women had a very complimentary kind of relationship. For example, you go back 150 years in our country. The women by and large ran the home front. They were domestic, they did the things that they needed to do to keep things gone at home. The men built things, they killed food, they planted food, they protected Okay, that was our role. Okay, so, even though we weren't necessarily naturally as good at communicators as the women because they are better communicators that was secondary to the fact that we brought a lot more stuff to the table. Well, now the women are as educated, if not more so, than us. They have money. They don't need to be protected from marauding hordes. They can go buy their food. They don't need somebody to go out and kill their food. So, as a result, many of them would like guys to be more women like, and In that sense it's harder for guys. We're not as verbal, we're not as necessarily emotional about things. It's just the way we're wired. So because of that, I remember one time my wife was getting off the phone with a lot of ladies from church, I don't know. She talked to several and she turned to me and she said Do you know what I think they would want in their marriage? I Think they would want to be married to a woman who can lift heavy things. Hmm, yeah, I mean they wanted. They wanted a guy to be as communicative and as emotionally sharing and as soft, but yet still be able to do some of these guy things.

Speaker 1: 39:46

Interesting. That's gonna give me trouble for saying that, but I think I got good research back up on that. I think so too. Yeah Well, I do want to talk about too. You mentioned the complementary relationship between men and women, especially when it comes to raising kids and Disciplining children and so for obviously for with the with the show or targeting men. So how can men especially help their wife, their spouse, with Raising kids or discipline the kids, and why is it so important for the man to get involved too with that? And it's not just obviously, women are naturally more nurturing and it's quote-unquote might be easier for them in a sense, but why is it so important for the man to be involved in that too?

Speaker 2: 40:32

One of the small steps in the book James was called protect. It's one of the later steps. I don't know if you got there yet. More and more women are coming to me and telling me that they are the authorities in their home, that they set the rules, they set the tone, they set the discipline. And now Disney dad over here. Mr Good time, mr Easy going, laid back, not notice nothing. Mr Honey, I was that way when I was a kid. I think I turned out pretty good. And the women are thinking let's get the relatives and vote. So more and more women are telling me they're the authorities and we guys are along for the ride. And I tell the guys, I say you want to make your wife feel warm toward you, protect her. I Doubt that any guy and I usually present this to groups any guy in here would let any other human being talk to his wife the way that 11 year old is talking to his wife on a regular basis. Next time you hear her locked in a battle with a kid, don't sit in the bargolounder Thinking to yourself close my eyes. I can't tell which one of them is 11 year old. Get in there and protect that woman. That's not just your mom You're talking to, that's my wife. Now you go, sit out. I'm gonna find out what she wants me to do about this. Well, you can't protect without getting a lawyer sign it at first. But and then I'm gonna do more and I'll tell you the guy. You know what the guy say. Well, the guys will say things like why? You know she nags them and she gets all, he gets all over their case. And, for heaven's sakes, just say it once and let it go and do something about it. And I tell the guys Her style may not be good, she's too wordy, she's too Over-talking, she's negotiable, she's emotional, so but she's still the authority. She's still mom, she still has authority, even though she doesn't necessarily enforce it as good as she could. So you step in, you should you. You show the authority. You know I used to when we had ten kids. At one point, james, we had ten kids under 12 at the house here. Oh God.

Speaker 1: 42:45

I never know. I never came home.

Speaker 2: 42:47

I know I did, we, we think I'm nuts a up, yes, sir, things. So here, honey, got another one coming next week. And when I come home, I could Well, james. I'm a highly trained communicator, so I could pick up on the subtle signals of a woman's dissatisfaction. For example, if I came in and my wife had two children by their upper arms and she was saying I Do not like them, ray, I am, I do not like them in my hair, I do not like them here or there, I do not like them, I don't care. I knew I picked up on this, james, because I'm trained. I Picked up on this, that she was upset, and so I found out what was going on and she handled it. My wife handled it. But then I added to it because my feeling was you don't give your mother grief like this, even though even though she's a good disciplinary and she's better than I am. But you don't do this to your mom. And I added to it. I said you're going to bed early tonight, mom doesn't need to deal with this. That's why I tell guys, I say, hey, step in there, protect that woman, don't be a wuss, because that's what there's too many guys out there like that. But then the women do this and here's, here's the, here's a catch 22 and I offer this is one of the resistance rationales. The women will say, yeah, but he's no, he's intimidating. Or oh, he's too loud. Or can he be softer? And I say, is he abusive? No, no, he's a loving dad. Would he hurt the children? Oh, no, never, he'd never hurt the children. Then I say, then let him be a man, don't tell him to discipline like a woman. Guys are more. They're more quantitative as a group. They are more intimidating in some respects. I mean, come on when, when daddy says, do a three-year-old stop that, the three-year-old reacts mommy can go. Now, stop it. No, don't sit, just put, just leave it on, just put that there. No, listen, are you listening to me? When the dad goes, quit it, the mom's go why does he? listen to you and not me. Well, we have a certain natural physiological advantage, All right just a little bit. Yeah, okay, my dad used to just go ram it and that was it. That was his discipline.

Speaker 1: 45:18

Shape up. Well, I see in the in doctor Ray's household, green Eggs and Hams was a popular book of choice.

Speaker 2: 45:29

Was it why? Well, you know. I just want to say this to you on the marriage book James, for the guys, I do have a scratch and sniff version, okay.

Speaker 1: 45:40

Yes, I, I did not get that I might have to talk to you after. Yeah, I won't like the outcome, would not like the other feet, that's for sure. Yeah well, hey, doctor, I know we're coming up on both of our bedtimes here, but I do have another question for you and so and I have not gotten to this part, so I'm interested to hear what you have to say about this. But it's so. In marriages, I know, a common Objection or thing that can happen is that affection or physical touch kind of seems to dwindle down. As you know, you're married five, ten, fifteen years, so why is it that affection sometimes dies down or chills in the marriage, and how can we Reignite that, if you will?

Speaker 2: 46:33

most of the people listening to this podcast, james, are people in decent marriages. They're probably Faithville people and they want their marriage to be God-seeking. Okay, you had a lot of science, I'm sure, in your education. Do you remember the law of entropy?

Speaker 1: 46:56

Oh, I Remember listening to my professor about it. Well it. Why don't you enlighten us? Doctor right, and I cannot tell you if you're right on or not.

Speaker 2: 47:10

I just expect you're not a PhD physical therapist here. The law of entropy is a major physics law. It says everything tends toward decay. Body's age, iron rust, the sun will burn out everything. Hence everything tends to our decay. There's a parallel law. I Called it in the book, the law of social entropy. Out of laziness, out of apathy, we decay. I Don't give as many compliments as I used to when we were first married. I don't say please or thank you as much as I used to when we were first Married. I don't touch you as much as I used to when we were first married. I don't do a lot of the things that I did, not because I'm hostile, but because I'm just getting sloppy, I'm getting lazy. So I talk about that. I say don't let the law of social entropy Kick into your marriage. You know as well as I do the people you work with. At one time, especially, some of the guys, were probably pretty strong. They may have been a weightlifter or they may have been an athlete. They're pretty strong. Well, the guy's 87 years old now and what came naturally to him when he was 31? He can't do. But you, you give him things to do to recover at least some of that strength. So he has to work at it. That's why I say, in the relationship, you know, it came more naturally the first three years of your marriage because, hey, you know you're on your best behavior. Is this fresh? This is new. You recording, for example, you're to be spouse.

Speaker 1: 48:48

You love your best behavior.

Speaker 2: 48:50

But then you know, five years, eight years, 12 years, 15 years, 20 years, 30 years, 35 years, ah, it's good, you just get sloppy, you get lazy, get apathetic, and that's when you stop doing all those things and you, if you're aware that you're getting sloppy, then you can turn the boat around a little bit. Sorry for the mixed metaphor.

Speaker 1: 49:11

That's all right. Well, forgive you on that one. So, dr Ray, what? What would be, I guess, the one. Take away one piece of advice you can give the men. Listen out there.

Speaker 2: 49:24

Would your wife say that you treat her Better than you treat anybody else? Or would she say Boy, I wish I got a fraction of the compliments he gives those girls at work? I'll tell you what the people at church think. He's a living saint. They ought to live with him for a couple of weeks. You want your wife to say my husband treats me better than he treats anybody else. And if she can't say that, then you got to look at yourself. That's what I would leave them with Love that Punch them right in the gut.

Speaker 1: 50:09

Dr Ray, I love it. Well, dr Ray, working, our listeners learn more about you working. We get the book and any final parting wisdom for the man.

Speaker 2: 50:17

If they want a signed copy, all they have to do is go to dr Ray calm, dr R a y calm. All the other 16 books are there too, but which, of course, I just want to say, james, I was not on your show the first 16. I don't know what it was. I think you were neglecting and ignoring me. I'm not trying to take it personal.

Speaker 1: 50:39

Man, I think we need 16 more shows.

Speaker 2: 50:41

Another psychologist, was it something I said?

Speaker 1: 50:46

You are my first psychologist, so it's definitely not another psychologist. I'm not cheating on you, dr Ray, I promise.

Speaker 2: 50:55

So they can get it there. They can get a new eWtn the books a million seller. There's a million in my cell.

Speaker 1: 51:06

So people buy by his book. He needs a. He needs his seller back, he needs to put wine down there or his wife is gonna get mad at him. Uh, dr Ray, this has been too much fun. We're gonna have a 16 part video series coming out for you all and the coming Coming weeks, so stay tuned for that, as we talk about all Dr Ray's books.

Speaker 2: 51:26

James, appreciate it. You're a great interview.

Speaker 1: 51:31

Dr Ray, this has been fun appreciate it. Thank you so much for your time and Until next time, everyone go out there and be a saint.